# Why is belief so important in Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025 "2013-09-04T20:54:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/41 "2013-09-05T20:50:35Z")
If you’re going to tell fantastical stories, it helps to add that the most important thing is to believe in those stories, even though they are clearly nonsense. Religions that have fantastical stories without that caveat just didn’t fare as well. In the big religion derby, “faith” is probably a successful trait. You’re asking this question about Christianity because that is what you see around you, but actually, you see it around you because it was successful. It was successful partially because it required faith where certain other didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/42 "2013-09-06T02:28:32Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > “Unseen” doesn’t mean “without any evidence whatsoever.” It simply means that you don’t have proof… and again, proof is not the same as evidence. Reportedly “seen” isn’t proof, it’s just weak as hell evidence. Actually “seen” isn’t proof either, it’s just stronger evidence. People recall seeing things that didn’t really happen all the time, or do you disagree? > [@](#): > > First, please note the actual content of that verse. It says, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” It does NOT say that belief should be made without any evidence whatsoever. But that’s what it means right? Blessed are those who believe with less evidence than Thomas? Blessed are those who just believe stories without verifying for themselves? > [@](#): > > So no, John 20:29 doesn’t teach that faith means belief without any shred of evidence. Sure it does, but to be charitable to you, maybe we should say that faith means to believe in extraordinary claims based on less than ordinary evidence. That’s what you do right? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/43 "2013-09-06T02:54:04Z")
> [@madmelon](#): > > Why is there so much importance placed on the positive \*\*belief \*\*in Jesus as a divine being and that he died for our sins? It’s self affirming to them, if more see it too it helps sooth their doubts that their life is focused on a mirage. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/44 "2013-09-06T02:56:54Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Reportedly “seen” isn’t proof, it’s just weak as hell evidence. Actually “seen” isn’t proof either, it’s just stronger evidence. People recall seeing things that didn’t really happen all the time, or do you disagree? If you want to be strict about it, then yes, seeing is not necessarily the same as proof either. That’s not a problem for me, since I don’t claim that faith means belief without any proof whatsoever. > [@](#): > > But that’s what it means right? Blessed are those who believe with less evidence than Thomas? Blessed are those who just believe stories without verifying for themselves? Jesus wasn’t talking about believing just any old thing. Rather, he said that those who specifically believed in the Resurrection are the ones who are blessed. This includes millions of believers in the 21st century – people who never got to see Jesus face-to-face, and who nevertheless believe for a variety of reasons. As for not “verifying for themselves,” that’s simply a strawman. I said that faith does not require proof. I did not say that faith means not performing any inquiries at all into the facts. Consider [Albert Henry Ross](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Henry_Ross), a journalist who set out to disprove the Resurrection, but who wound up changing his mind as a result of his investigation. He never met Jesus personally, but the evidence compelled him to believe. According to the words of Jesus, he is blessed as a result. > [@](#): > > Sure it does, but to be charitable to you, maybe we should say that faith means to believe in extraordinary claims based on less than ordinary evidence. That’s what you do right? Y’know, you might want to done it back a bit. You say that you’re being charitable, but that last sentence of yours strikes me as a bit accusatory. If nothing else, the condescension is unmistakable. It would be more accurate to say that faith sometimes requires believing even when the evidence is less than EXTRAordinary. Contrary to what you claim, it does not require that this evidence fall short of even mere ordinary evidence. I won’t deny that people – religious or otherwise – can have faith in something for very little reason, but faith itself does not require less than ordinary evidence. Now, you’re probably going to claim that extraordinary claims MUST require extraordinary evidence. That’s a common assertion, but it has no solid foundation. For example, one does not require extraordinary evidence to establish that somebody is alive. Nor does one need extraordinary evidence to determine, with an exceptional degree of confidence, that somebody is dead. Yet to establish that someone has come back from the dead, it is sufficient to simply establish that he was dead and that he was alive at some later point. One would be justified in choosing to doubly verify that claim, but it would be fallacious to say that this fact can only be establishing using some outlandishly extraordinary degree of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/45 "2013-09-06T03:14:59Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > It would be more accurate to say that faith sometimes requires believing even when the evidence is less than EXTRAordinary. Contrary to what you claim, it does not require that this evidence fall short of even mere ordinary evidence. Incorrect. Faith is about believing when there is no evidence at best, and usually against the evidence. Christianity like other religions has no evidence for it and makes no logical sense, and therefore requires that one deny facts and logic to take it seriously; that’s faith. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/47 "2013-09-06T12:16:36Z")
> [@madmelon](#): > > Why is there so much importance placed on the positive \*\*belief \*\*in Jesus as a divine being and that he died for our sins? Why won’t someone be “saved” if they are open to the idea but would just like some hard evidence first before they fully devote their life to something? > > I’m asking for a very down-to-earth explanation of this without any quoting of scripture or the like. How could this make sense to someone not already influenced by Christian doctrine? > > I’m not a Christian, but I know many and have been to Church many times. The obsession with positive belief has always been a logical stumbling block for me. > > Thanks! My take on it is we must believe that man(kind) is also God and also God’s child, because without that belief we will never realize our own divinity as I believe we are all eternal being and all able, and suppose to, live eternally. Again it is my take that people die, and go through karmic reincarnation - which is a cycle of dieing over and over, because they don’t believe they can live eternally and since they are gods, that belief makes it so. Their own belief that they must die, and them being gods, having the power to make their belief reality, traps them in this cycle. The hard evidence is not what is needed, you don’t need proof that Jesus is God’s child so much as inside of you, you need to know that you are God’s child, and that comes through self discovery. Once you know that you are God’s child, then you know that Jesus (and Buddha, and Mohammad, and Joe Shmo, etc) is God’s child. But for some, perhaps many, they need to come to realize this by first recognizing Jesus as the son of God and man before realizing that they too are a child of God. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/48 "2013-09-06T14:22:09Z")
> [@madmelon](#): > > Why is there so much importance placed on the positive \*\*belief \*\*in Jesus as a divine being and that he died for our sins? Why won’t someone be “saved” if they are open to the idea but would just like some hard evidence first before they fully devote their life to something? > > I’m asking for a very down-to-earth explanation of this without any quoting of scripture or the like. How could this make sense to someone not already influenced by Christian doctrine? > > I’m not a Christian, but I know many and have been to Church many times. The obsession with positive belief has always been a logical stumbling block for me. > > Thanks! That’s like asking why is data so important in Science? Belief is the fabric of Xtianity. Without belief, there is no magick. Why did the powerful religious leaders set the bar at belief? If they didn’t keep you off-balance and in fear of damnation, you might get complacent and stop attending services and offering tithes. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025/49 "2013-09-06T14:53:03Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > If you want to be strict about it, then yes, seeing is not necessarily the same as proof either. That’s not a problem for me, since I don’t claim that faith means belief without any proof whatsoever. Right, I’m just saying that the Bible describes faith as belief based on things you don’t see and things you want to be true, which is pretty close to no proof whatsoever. You can use a more modern dictionary definition of faith if you want, it’s just not that Biblical. > [@](#): > > Jesus wasn’t talking about believing just any old thing. Rather, he said that those who specifically believed in the Resurrection are the ones who are blessed. Right, Jesus was talking about believing miraculous stories about himself, instead of someone else. That’s usually how it works. > [@](#): > > This includes millions of believers in the 21st century – people who never got to see Jesus face-to-face, and who nevertheless believe for a variety of reasons. Yes, I think those millions are believing in things they didn’t see, things they want to be true, rather than things they have sufficient evidence to believe based on reason. > [@](#): > > Consider [Albert Henry Ross](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Henry_Ross), a journalist who set out to disprove the Resurrection, but who wound up changing his mind as a result of his investigation. He never met Jesus personally, but the evidence compelled him to believe. That atheist examined the evidence and turns Christian story is a pretty good schtick. I bet he sold a ton of books. Your link says he was an advertising agent, hmmm. > [@](#): > > According to the words of Jesus, he is blessed as a result. I don’t know, did he give all his money to the poor? > [@](#): > > Y’know, you might want to done it back a bit. You say that you’re being charitable, but that last sentence of yours strikes me as a bit accusatory. If nothing else, the condescension is unmistakable. If you are aware of sufficient evidence to justify reasonable belief in the resurrection of Jesus I would happy to have you present it. Maybe in a new thread. Otherwise wear that shoe, cause it fits. > [@](#): > > Contrary to what you claim, it does not require that this evidence fall short of even mere ordinary evidence. I won’t deny that people – religious or otherwise – can have faith in something for very little reason, but faith itself does not require less than ordinary evidence. It’s been my experience that Christians only appeal to faith when they don’t have sufficient evidence, else they would just appeal to that evidence. > [@](#): > > Now, you’re probably going to claim that extraordinary claims MUST require extraordinary evidence. That’s a common assertion, but it has no solid foundation. Are you so lax with your requirements regarding extraordinary claims of other mythologies or just Christianity? > [@](#): > > For example, one does not require extraordinary evidence to establish that somebody is alive. Nor does one need extraordinary evidence to determine, with an exceptional degree of confidence, that somebody is dead. Neither are extraordinary claims. > [@](#): > > Yet to establish that someone has come back from the dead, it is sufficient to simply establish that he was dead and that he was alive at some later point. One would be justified in choosing to doubly verify that claim, but it would be fallacious to say that this fact can only be establishing using some outlandishly extraordinary degree of evidence. See that’s where you are mistaken, especially if you have not witnessed the death and resurrection yourself but are relying on personal testimonies of others, which are known to be unreliable. Are you familiar with David Hume on the subject? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-belief-so-important-in-christianity/668025.md?page=2)