# Why is Bill Mazeroski so obscure? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 10, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375 "2012-02-10T04:07:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CheeseDonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@CheeseDonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeseDonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/21 "2012-02-11T16:16:08Z")
Mazeroski isn’t really obscure among hardcore and even casual baseball fans. He is often considered the best fielding second baseman ever, which is one of the main reasons he was inducted into the Hall. Many people think his election was a mistake nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/22 "2012-02-11T18:43:22Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Read post #3. :smack: Never mind. How did I miss that? ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/23 "2012-02-12T00:18:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In fairness, James wrote that a long time ago, and has since written stuff stating Mazeroski’s defense was perhaps not as unbelieveable as he had previously thought. In truth, the best defensive statistics of all time probably belong to Ozzie Smith or Brooks Robinson, two guys who I think most everyone will agree were not slouches with the mitts. No modern slate of defensive stats places Maz as being the best fielder of all time. Thanks for the updated info. I can see where some might call the HOF appointment questionable. Still, he was a great 2nd baseman, and as Pirate fan, I’ll never say it was a mistake 🙂 A chart depicting double-play records by 2nd basemen. > **[Double Play Records for Second Basemen on Baseball Almanac](https://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_2bdp.shtml)** > > Double play records for second baseman by Baseball Almanac. Maz looks great on this front. Most seasons leading the league in double-plays (eight, which is three more than anyone else), most double-plays in a single season, most double-plays in a career. This was Maz’s bread-and-butter. To this day, he works with the Pirates as an infield instructor in spring training, with ‘turning the double-play’ being a big part of that. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/24 "2012-02-12T03:47:09Z")
The fact that he was primarily a defensive player really hurts his notoriety. The only big name players known primarily for defense are Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith, and both played at positions that tend to lend themselves to highlight reel plays. Starting double plays is incredibly important in baseball, but second baseman starting DPs isn’t that exciting most of the time. Also, both Robinson and Smith played in multiple postseason series that exposed them to the rest of the country. Mazeroski only played in three postseason series (1960 and two in 1971) and in 1971, he was strictly a bench player. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/25 "2012-02-12T06:14:20Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > We must not be reading the same thread. 😕 How was that? He maybe didn’t totally fall into the “good field, no hit” category but his lifetime numbers are pretty similar to the numbers of the Yankees 2nd baseman from 1960. Quick who was that without looking? Mazeroski would be mostly forgotten without that one hit. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/26 "2012-02-12T11:51:34Z")
That would be Bobby Richardson, notorious for a terrible On-Base Percentage (with no power) for a leadoff hitter. Maz had some power, a better OBP than Richardson, and a better glove. The HR helped, but Maz is in the HoF for his glove, which was pretty spectacular. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/27 "2012-02-12T14:49:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The guys right next to (Mazeroski) in career value in the BR ranking I mentioned are Elston Howard, who won an MVP Award for the Yankees, and Joe Adcock, who was sort of the exact opposite of Maz in that he could hit like a crazy bastard but couldn’t catch or throw; both men are now almost wholly forgotten and never sniffed the Hall. THAT’S obscurity. Indeed, Adcock is best remembered for his role in a game involving the Pirates – he was the guy who eventually ended Harvey Haddix’s epic performance by hitting one out to win the game in the thirteenth after Haddix had pitched twelve perfect innings against the Braves. “Hit one out” is deliberate phrasing – the blow [didn’t officially count as a home run.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Haddix#Near_perfect_game) > [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > A chart depicting double-play records by 2nd basemen. > [Double Play Records for Second Basemen on Baseball Almanac](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_2bdp.shtml) Interesting that the chart lists Nap Lajoie’s team as “Nap Lajoie” – though understandable, considering that the Cleveland team for which he played during those seasons in which he led the American League in double plays was called the “Naps” in his honor before being renamed “Indians” after he left the club. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/28 "2012-02-12T14:56:05Z")
I was a young 'un back then and was really following baseball closely. At the all-star games the players all used to stand in front of the dugouts and watch the great hitters take batting practice. They all piled out again to watch Mazeroski take infield, he was that good. Two different shortstops that played with Mazeroski set National League records for participating in double plays. Unless the HOF has no place for defensive excellence Mazeroski belongs there, home run or not. He was the best of his time in the field, arguably the best defensive second baseman of all time. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/29 "2012-02-12T16:00:08Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > That would be Bobby Richardson, notorious for a terrible On-Base Percentage (with no power) for a leadoff hitter. Maz had some power, a better OBP than Richardson, and a better glove. > > The HR helped, but Maz is in the HoF for his glove, which was pretty spectacular. Bobby Richardson career: 12 years, batting average .266, On base .299, fielding .978, 5 straight gold gloves, only player to win WS MVP on the losing side (same series when Maz hit the home run) Mazeroski: 17 years, BA .260, opb, .299, fielding .983, 8 gold gloves. So same on base as the “terrible” Richardson. Both were great fielders with the edge to Mazeroski. Almost equal fielding percentage. Three more gold gloves but no doubt Richardson was one of the best defensive players of his era. Almost equal batting average. Mazeroski is in because he hit one improbable home run. Good for him, he’ll always be a part of baseball history. Eta no power Richardson hit a grand slam in the same series, part of his MVP performance. Maz had more power but was certainly not considered a huge hr threat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/30 "2012-02-12T16:26:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Bobby Richardson career: 12 years, batting average .266, On base .299, fielding .978, 5 straight gold gloves, only player to win WS MVP on the losing side (same series when Maz hit the home run) > > Mazeroski: 17 years, BA .260, opb, .299, fielding .983, 8 gold gloves. > > So same on base as the “terrible” Richardson. Both were great fielders with the edge to Mazeroski. Almost equal fielding percentage. Three more gold gloves but no doubt Richardson was one of the best defensive players of his era. Almost equal batting average. Mazeroski is in because he hit one improbable home run. Good for him, he’ll always be a part of baseball history. There’s a pretty big difference you’re handwaving away in the length of their careers. 17 years versus 12 years is a lot. Mazeroski played 2163 games, which is a relatively long career for a second baseman and middling for a Hall of Famer. Richardson played only 1412 games, which wouldn’t be enough to get him into the Hall of Fame if he’d hit like Roberto Alomar. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/31 "2012-02-12T18:18:52Z")
To the OP: Maz is becoming obscure because he is dead. What is more, all the people who watched him play are dead or quickly getting there. My goodness, doesn’t anyone factor the effects of time into their hypotheses anymore?:rolleyes: :D:D:D 😛 Oh, and by the way, if he isn’t dead, he is pretty clearly nearly dead. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/32 "2012-02-12T19:31:49Z")
He’s way more known than that Jude fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/33 "2012-02-12T20:28:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There’s a pretty big difference you’re handwaving away in the length of their careers. 17 years versus 12 years is a lot. > > Mazeroski played 2163 games, which is a relatively long career for a second baseman and middling for a Hall of Famer. Richardson played only 1412 games, which wouldn’t be enough to get him into the Hall of Fame if he’d hit like Roberto Alomar. Not hand waving. For one, three of those years he played less than half the season. And I am in no way saying that Richardson belongs in the HoF. He doesn’t. But both had their careers peak at around the same time. Both played the same position. Both had nearly identical numbers in hitting (with the edge to Maz in home runs) and fielding percentage. Both were multiple gold glove winners at the same time so were supposedly the best defensive player at that position in their own leagues. But the big difference was one dramatic iconic home run. That home run will be remembered until people stop caring about baseball. But it is a big reason why he was put in the HoF by his buddies after years of not being elected the traditional way. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/34 "2012-02-12T21:13:07Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Indeed, Adcock is best remembered for his role in a game involving the Pirates – he was the guy who eventually ended Harvey Haddix’s epic performance by hitting one out to win the game in the thirteenth after Haddix had pitched twelve perfect innings against the Braves. “Hit one out” is deliberate phrasing – the blow [didn’t officially count as a home run.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Haddix#Near_perfect_game) He also hit four home runs and a double in one nine-inning game, a total base record (18) which stood for 48 years. And, he was part of the first run of four teammates to hit four consecutive home runs, in 1961. Not that anyone much remembers this, but I do . . . ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/35 "2012-02-12T21:18:47Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > he was put in the HoF by his buddies after years of not being elected the traditional way. Name his buddies, please? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/36 "2012-02-12T21:36:09Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Name his buddies, please? Mazeroski was the last to be inducted under the old rules for the veterans committee. Prior to the changes there was a lot of grumbling about those who chose behind closed doors and that it was more about friends and golfing buddies. I have also heard that Ted Williams was one of the main reasons why Maz was not voted in prior to 2001. Since then the process is much more open. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/37 "2012-02-12T21:44:41Z")
So you can’t actually name a single person on the veterans committee who voted Maz in, can you? But they’re his “buddies”? Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/38 "2012-02-12T22:44:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So you can’t actually name a single person on the veterans committee who voted Maz in, can you? But they’re his “buddies”? Got it. The committee which was changed the following year due to years of criticism of secrecy and cronyism keeps me by its nature from naming which crony secretly voted for him. Yes you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/39 "2012-02-12T23:36:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The committee which was changed the following year due to years of criticism of secrecy and cronyism keeps me by its nature from naming which crony secretly voted for him. Yes you are correct. More bullshit. The names of the committee members are public. You just don’t know the names of the people whose reputations you’re maligning, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375/40 "2012-02-12T23:58:18Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > More bullshit. The names of the committee members are public. You just don’t know the names of the people whose reputations you’re maligning, that’s all. Prior to 2001 the proceedings of the committee were secret. Nothing was released as to who they were considering or what criteria they used. There were some rumors. Yogi fought hard to have his best friend Scooter voted in. Ted Williams fought hard to keep Maz out (successfully) and get Dom DiMaggio in (unsuccessful). Just after Mazeroski got in the composition of the committee changed and the proceedings became much more transparent. You mean to say as a big baseball fan you have never heard of any of this? I see many articles calling Mazeroski’s selection as controversial and saying it was the impetus to have the structure changed. Sure most are sports writers and just giving their professional opinion. But it’s hardly like I just made this up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bill-mazeroski-so-obscure/612375.md?page=3)