# Why is Bush anti-$10Billion loan to Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883 "2003-10-22T11:53:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/1 "2003-10-22T11:53:00Z")
Bush claims that putting half the reconstruction money on a loan basis which Iraq would then have to repay would be a crippling burden to Iraq. But the Bush Leaguers don’t have a compassionate bone in any of their bodies. So what’s the real reason behind the bluster? Somehow, I think it’s all tied to Bechtel and Halliburton. But how? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/2 "2003-10-22T11:56:20Z")
If its a loan and not a grante does that mean there will be more accounting for that money ? Possible answer… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/3 "2003-10-22T11:57:25Z")
Your conspiracy theory aside, the honest answer is because Iraq is unlikely to be able to pay it back in any case, and trying to might send thme into the same debt spiral that plagues many South American and African nations. of those, have other problems that go along with it, such as massive corruption that would astonish you, but its still a legitamate fear. Personally, while I’m on the subject, the US should pressure the WMF to try and get those debts cancelled. Most of it just ain’t goinna get paid back, and the world financial community may as well face it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/4 "2003-10-22T12:01:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Your conspiracy theory aside, the honest answer is because Iraq is unlikely to be able to pay it back in any case, and trying to might send thme into the same debt spiral that plagues many South American and African nations. of those, have other problems that go along with it, such as massive corruption that would astonish you, but its still a legitamate fear. The interesting thing to me, at least, is that the whole “debt ruins the economies of developing countries” argument is a staple of the left. Bush surely isn’t a Drop the Debt fan, but he’s using one of their arguments. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/5 "2003-10-22T12:06:40Z")
So what you’re saying is by giving the reconstruction money awa, we’re setting the example for France, Russia, German, etc.? Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz as altruists? Droll. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/6 "2003-10-22T12:12:22Z")
Is that reply directed at me? I didn’t say - and don’t think - anything of the kind. The answer as far as I can see if that a loan to Iraq is not going to be repaid, just like **smiling bandit** said. I’m not arguing Bush is a closet liberal, I just said it was amusing that he appears to be utilizing what’s normally a rather extreme-left position. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/7 "2003-10-22T12:41:28Z")
Why can’t they pay it back? It isn’t as if they don’t have any way to make money for themselves? If the whole war is about oil, then why not just let them give the U.S. a nice discount as repayment? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/8 "2003-10-22T13:12:52Z")
Bush I’m sure is aware that there is an unyielding opinion in the Middle East that the arbitrary decision by a non Islamic country to take responsibility for removing a working regime in their part of the world rests on the aggressor country . To shift the burden of that responsibility to the “victimized” country arbitrarily without legitimate consent would be viewed as arrogant, without merit and thus contrary to the long term goal of winning the acceptance of the peoples of the region. Failure in this regard would make the entire investment in the war effort and reconstruction a dismal failure and would certainly be a blight on his historical record. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/9 "2003-10-22T13:22:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*To shift the burden of that responsibility to the “victimized” country arbitrarily without legitimate consent would be viewed as arrogant, without merit and thus contrary to the long term goal of winning the acceptance of the peoples of the region. Failure in this regard would make the entire investment in the war effort and reconstruction a dismal failure and would certainly be a blight on his historical record. \*\* (Rancor off) Who, in the Bush administration thinks these high-minded thoughts - and has the power to implement them? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/10 "2003-10-22T13:41:29Z")
Look Iraq already owes money to other countries in the form of loans. It also happens to be completely destitute and potentially radicalized. The focus of reconstruction is to get a stable, secular, democracy friendly country on its feet. Oil revenues are all based on _future_ capacity and potential reserves. There is no way to get the money out of the ground fast enough to rebuild Iraq. Should the US make reconstruction moneys a loan to a country you invaded/liberated is massively offensive. To then expect the rest of the world to offer up money when you yourselves are insisting to have a loan paid back first is naïve and dangerously stupid. Besides there is a problem with massively writing off debt. It makes future sources of credit harder and more expensive to secure. Think of a bank’s reaction to _your_ application for a mortgage days after you file for bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/11 "2003-10-22T13:51:20Z")
**Antiochus:** Let me understand what you are saying: There may be very good reasons to not make this a loan, but the Bush administration is too stupid or evil to believe any of those reasons, so this must somehow must be a payoff to Haliburton and/or Bechtel, even though you really don’t know of any way in which making this a grant instead of a loan benefits them. Is that about it? If so, you’re wrong. Bush has made the very points grienspace made above - that making this a loan would send a very bad message to the Arab world about America’s motives. You don’t invade a country, then force that country to pay your companies to rebuild it. THAT smacks of crony capitalism, which plays right into the hands of the people you’re trying to defeat. In addition, Bush is trying to raise money from other countries for reconstruction. How does he make that case if his own country is unwilling to foot the bill? How does he convince France and Russia to forgive their debts if the U.S. is piling on more? No wacky conspiracy theories about the evil Haliburton connection required here. The Bush administration is right, and the people who want this to be a loan are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/12 "2003-10-22T14:03:46Z")
Okay, Grey and Sam Stone. I will concede that for the first time in his life, Bush might have a proper thought in his head. Now, let us see how it plays out. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/13 "2003-10-22T14:03:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \* > \*\*Why can’t they pay it back? It isn’t as if they don’t have any way to make money for themselves? If the whole war is about oil, then why not just let them give the U.S. a nice discount as repayment? \*\* Here’s a short form answer: > [@](#): > > \*\*[Bean Counting in Baghdad: Debt, Reparations, Reconstruction, and Resources\*\*](http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/rsepResources/si/june03/middleEast.asp) > > The exact level of Iraq’s debt is controversial. A generally accepted figure is $383 billion (Barton and Crocker, 2003): $127 billion in loans, including $47 billion in accrued interest; $199 billion in reparations and $57 billion in contractual obligations. Assuming the Arab Monetary Fund’s (2002) population estimate of 22.81 million, this translates into a per capita debt of around $16,790. In perspective, this is about 10 times as great as Argentina’s at the time of that country’s economic meltdown in 2001. As another basis of comparison Germany’s World War I reparations totaled about twice its gross domestic product (GDP). These debts were never paid in full; they proved to be an impossible burden. Iraq’s debts amount to around 15 times its annual GDP (Francis, 2003). Iraq did not make any attempts at servicing the debt **in the 1990s** , but even if it had, **its _entire_ annual oil revenues during this period would not have met the yearly _interest_ charges**. > > An optimistic estimate of the country’s likely oil revenues over the next decade or so is $22 billion per year, with a pessimistic forecast coming in at around $15 billion. Of this, around $11-$13 billion will be needed just to run the government and revitalize the oil industry. Restoring and revitalizing the oil industry through reconstructing its infrastructure and the development of new fields may run another $35 billion over the next 10 years (Powell, 2002; Alansrawi, 2001). > > **Even if all the $22 billion were earmarked for debt servicing, the total amount of outstanding debt would be reduced by only around 5% per year. Accrued and on-going interest payments might reduce this figure to 1% or 2%.** > > Contemplating the victorious allies at the Versailles peace conference in 1919, the famous English economist John Maynard Keynes observed that “reparation was their main excursion into the economic field, and they settled it as a problem of theology, of politics, of electoral chicane, from every point of view except that of the economic future of the states whose destiny they were handling” (quoted in Economist, May 17, 2003). Keynes rightly foresaw that this neglect would have disastrous consequences. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/14 "2003-10-22T14:17:00Z")
It of course would be helpful if there was some sort of a requirement that corps receiveing the contracts had to hire iraqis whenever and wherever feasible. There’s not though. > [@](#): > > \*\*[Jobs for the boys—and for foreigners\*\*](http://www.economist.com/World/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2126088) > _Oct 9th 2003 | BAGHDAD > From The Economist print edition_ > > …import of migrants to service the American-led armies…fuels resentment. Saudi caterers contracted by Kellogg Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, an American oil-services company, have shipped in hundreds of Indian and Bangladeshi cooks to avoid, they say, the risk that Iraqis might poison the food. Filipina maids hired in Jordan do the cleaning. Lorries from the Gulf states bring in thousands of tonnes of provisions every day because Iraqi food does not meet American specifications. No-entry signs at the back of the coalition’s Baghdad headquarters are in Urdu and Bengali, not Arabic. > > …new investment law lets foreign contractors bring in labour from abroad but export all profits. …Iraqis who do get contracts are often just back from exile. > _© The Economist Newspaper Limited 2003_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/15 "2003-10-22T15:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Antiochus \* > \*\*Okay, Grey and Sam Stone. > > I will concede that for the first time in his life, Bush might have a proper thought in his head. > > Now, let us see how it plays out. \*\* You migiht want to learn the difference between GD and the BBQ Pit before you shoot off at the mouth about what goes on in another person’s head. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/16 "2003-10-22T17:55:06Z")
Ooooh, John Mace. Perhaps you should read the thread, “Rush Limbaugh’s Fall From Grace…” right here in GD. You’d best get on up there and tell them what the difference is between GD and BBQ. They’re dying to hear from you. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/17 "2003-10-22T18:37:38Z")
Maybe, but it’s a standard we should try to reach. We’re debating ideas here, not people. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/18 "2003-10-22T19:14:01Z")
Well, unless he’s gonna police other threads in GD, Mace has has no business reprimanding me. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/19 "2003-10-22T19:37:10Z")
Isn’t about half of the money going straight into the pockets of US corporations, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883/20 "2003-10-22T19:42:08Z")
**Antiochus** , you’re right, don’t try, it’s not worth it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-bush-anti-10billion-loan-to-iraq/208883.md?page=2)