# Why is China's economy successful? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453 "2013-08-16T21:56:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/41 "2013-08-22T03:43:54Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > The problem is- **Communism = _rampant corruption_**. Always has and always will. It creates it, fosters it, and only ‘works’ for a while because of it. Communism was introduced as an economic/political system a little over a century ago and it has been a complete, unmitigated, miserable failure everywhere it’s been tried. Today Cuba & the DPRK are still third world shit holes filled with massive corruption because of it. Maybe so, but on the [Corruption Perception Index](http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/), Cuba ranks better (meaning, less corrupt) than Mexico, and most of Central America, and Venezuela, and Colombia. And China ranks better than Russia. (And Canada ranks better than the U.S., but that should surprise nobody.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/42 "2013-08-22T03:48:49Z")
What are you talking about? How the heck are you defining “communism?” FWIW, the Party is a lot more accountable than they may seem at first glance, and they do react to popular pressure. It’s not democracy or anything close, but they are under no illusion that they can maintain power without keeping people happy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/43 "2013-08-22T03:49:16Z")
North Korea does rank near the bottom, however. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/44 "2013-08-22T03:52:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > What are you talking about? How the heck are you defining “communism?” > > FWIW, the Party is a lot more accountable than they may seem at first glance, and they do react to popular pressure. It’s not democracy or anything close, but they are under no illusion that they can maintain power without keeping people happy. And they live in a country where the rulers, however absolute, always rule on sufferance. For thousands of years in China, poor performance by a ruling dynasty has been taken to justify rebellion in the eyes of Heaven. (And even natural disasters can be proof of poor performance.) But I do wonder how many Chinese even believe in their culture’s old conception of “Heaven” any more. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/45 "2013-08-22T04:23:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Maybe so, but on the [Corruption Perception Index](http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/), Cuba ranks better (meaning, less corrupt) than Mexico, and most of Central America, and Venezuela, and Colombia. And China ranks better than Russia. (And Canada ranks better than the U.S., but that should surprise nobody.) Are you sure that link doesn’t just point to left-wing propaganda? Iraq and Afghanistan are both very near the bottom of the list; but these countries have brilliant 21st-century economic systems designed by the finest minds in Chicago, Bethesda and Auburn, Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/46 "2013-08-22T05:05:14Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > The problem is- **Communism = _rampant corruption_**. Always has and always will. It creates it, fosters it, and only ‘works’ for a while because of it. Communism was introduced as an economic/political system a little over a century ago and it has been a complete, unmitigated, miserable failure everywhere it’s been tried. Today Cuba & the DPRK are still third world shit holes filled with massive corruption because of it. > > When push comes to shove the old guard in China isn’t going to let go of power without a fight. And if govt officials aren’t true representatives of the people (i.e. elected in a democratic republic of some kind) there are little to no consequences for them when they choose not to listen to the people whenever it doesn’t suit them. IOW you can’t have it both ways. As stated above capitalism & communism are inherently incompatible and eventually only one can truly prevail. The Chinese Govt isn’t that kind of communism. I’d agree with **even sven**. Its difficult to explain the Govt, but high level Govt officials willingly step down according to a preset timetable (not arbitrarily), Govt positions are attainable by anyone (meritocracy). It’s nothing like Russian communism. And immediate forced democracy was not good for Russia so they don’t want to go that route so quickly. But yes, rampant corruption which could do them in. Some is ok, too much and the populace turns on you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/47 "2013-08-22T06:03:37Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > The Chinese Govt isn’t that kind of communism. I’d agree with **even sven**. Its difficult to explain the Govt, but high level Govt officials willingly step down according to a preset timetable (not arbitrarily), Govt positions are attainable by anyone (meritocracy). I think you’re putting too nice a gloss on it. It’s true the Chinese have emphasized the idea of collective leadership (having been burnt in the past by too much power being concentrated in one individual). So they do cycle through officials. But I doubt many of the officials being demoted are happy about it and willingly stepping down. And appointments are more likely to be based on factional political questions like who has the right allies, who has the wrong enemies, who is getting too strong and needs to be knocked down, who is weak and can’t defend himself, who owes us favors and who do we owe favors to then the question of who will do the best job. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/48 "2013-08-22T06:33:52Z")
Can’t speak to their state of mind but they do step down every ten years. That cycle has happened a few times. I don’t know if it can last, but they are trying to adapt to keep the system in place. I don’t support it, but it’s definitely not communist Russia. Your paragraph regarding appointments is all true. But it’s true in a democracy, too. My point is that it’s not just based on your family. Anyone can try and successfully play the political game. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/49 "2013-08-22T14:25:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Are you sure that link doesn’t just point to left-wing propaganda? Iraq and Afghanistan are both very near the bottom of the list; but these countries have brilliant 21st-century economic systems designed by the finest minds in Chicago, Bethesda and Auburn, Alabama. It doesn’t surprise me that you labor under the delusion that Auburn, Alabama currently has influence over the economic policy of any nation. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/50 "2013-08-22T14:45:29Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > The problem is- **Communism = _rampant corruption_**. Always has and always will. It creates it, fosters it, and only ‘works’ for a while because of it. Communism was introduced as an economic/political system a little over a century ago and it has been a complete, unmitigated, miserable failure everywhere it’s been tried. Today Cuba & the DPRK are still third world shit holes filled with massive corruption because of it. Unlike neoliberal capitalist countries such as Haiti, the Philippines, Niger, and many many others, right? Speaking of corruption… The DPRK leadership hasn’t talked much about Communism per se for decades, instead referring to the “Juche” cult of self-reliance. As for Cuba, that country has been under a harsh set of sanctions/embargo for even more decades. Even with this treatment ,and the inefficiencies of central planning, the Cuban regime has achieved great feats at improving the well-being of the population. They may have run up against the limits of what can be achieved, and apparently Raul Castro wishes to leave office as the “Deng Xiaoping of Cuba,” though it seems to me that he ought to look to Vietnam and Yugoslavia for even better (and more useful) inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/51 "2013-08-22T15:18:58Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > … > > As stated above capitalism & communism are inherently incompatible and eventually only one can truly prevail. The thing is, China doesn’t actually _have_ Communism, anymore. Since Mao croaked, and they had their falling out with the USSR, they’ve pretty much gone their own way, trying anything and everything, and when they find what works, they call it Communism. I see China winding up like South Korea after the war. Authoritarian but with plenty of Capitalism, slowly transitioning to Democracy and Capitalism, and once they get there, they’ll call _that_ ‘Communism’. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/52 "2013-08-22T16:08:50Z")
China is decidedly non-democratic. It’s being run by a single party that promotes from within, and due to allegiance. They still have 5 year plans that outline the goals of the government and it plans the direction the nation moves towards. It’s not an ant colony but it’s still fairly communistic. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/53 "2013-08-22T16:15:38Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > China is decidedly non-democratic. It’s being run by a single party that promotes from within, and due to allegiance. They still have 5 year plans that outline the goals of the government and it plans the direction the nation moves towards. It’s not an ant colony but it’s still fairly communistic. Sounds more like PRI-era Mexico than anything else I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/54 "2013-08-22T16:37:16Z")
Everyone I know who was investing in China is getting out. You bring a ship into port, only one company can unload it, they only have two trucks and the company is owned by the brother-in-law of the port manager. If you are paying tens of thousands of dollars a day for the ship, the only way to get it unloaded is to start throwing around money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/55 "2013-08-22T17:09:12Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > China is decidedly non-democratic. So are lots of non-Communist countries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/56 "2013-08-22T17:10:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think you’re putting too nice a gloss on it. It’s true the Chinese have emphasized the idea of collective leadership (having been burnt in the past by too much power being concentrated in one individual). So they do cycle through officials. > > But I doubt many of the officials being demoted are happy about it and willingly stepping down. And appointments are more likely to be based on factional political questions like who has the right allies, who has the wrong enemies, who is getting too strong and needs to be knocked down, who is weak and can’t defend himself, who owes us favors and who do we owe favors to then the question of who will do the best job. Works just like American elections, then? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/57 "2013-08-22T17:11:48Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Unlike neoliberal capitalist countries such as Haiti, the Philippines, Niger, and many many others, right? Speaking of corruption… > > The DPRK leadership hasn’t talked much about Communism per se for decades, instead referring to the “Juche” cult of self-reliance. As for Cuba, that country has been under a harsh set of sanctions/embargo for even more decades. Even with this treatment ,and the inefficiencies of central planning, the Cuban regime has achieved great feats at improving the well-being of the population. They may have run up against the limits of what can be achieved, and apparently Raul Castro wishes to leave office as the “Deng Xiaoping of Cuba,” though it seems to me that he ought to look to Vietnam and Yugoslavia for even better (and more useful) inspiration. Well, not Yugoslavia, let us hope. :eek: Not that any part of Cuba is an obvious candidate for secession. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/58 "2013-08-22T20:25:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, not Yugoslavia, let us hope. :eek: > > Not that any part of Cuba is an obvious candidate for secession. I’m serious. A decentralized, market-socialist regime like the one that emerged in Yugoslavia after Tito broke with Stalin in the early 1950s seems like a fine idea, especially since there’s no guarantee that the embargo will necessarily end soon. There’s a bit of irony in your post’s expression of fear, since Yugoslavia eventually aroused the ire of the neoliberal Western powers, particularly when it became evident that the country was not going to go the way of the Warsaw Pact regimes. Enter the IMF, National Endowment for Democracy, and so many other actors, who did all that was necessary to pit the republics against one another, and tear that place apart. It took about a decade, and three separate waves, but they got what they wanted. A resilient Cuba that looked like it was turning the corner economically would arouse the same ire, magnified greatly. Would the US government be able to do anything about it, considering all that has changed since the early 1990s? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/59 "2013-08-22T21:36:28Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > . . . especially since there’s no guarantee that the embargo will necessarily end soon. The embargo will outlast Fidel, but I daresay it will not long outlast Raul. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453/60 "2013-08-23T01:44:14Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > There’s a bit of irony in your post’s expression of fear, since Yugoslavia eventually aroused the ire of the neoliberal Western powers, particularly when it became evident that the country was not going to go the way of the Warsaw Pact regimes. Enter the IMF, National Endowment for Democracy, and so many other actors, who did all that was necessary to pit the republics against one another, and tear that place apart. It took about a decade, and three separate waves, but they got what they wanted. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-chinas-economy-successful/666453.md?page=4)