# Why is counterfeiting so prevalent in China? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294 "2011-06-21T15:23:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gilles\_de\_Rais](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@Gilles\_de\_Rais](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilles_de_Rais)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/1 "2011-06-21T15:23:38Z")
Versus other countries… ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/2 "2011-06-21T15:37:08Z")
Is it? But in general, I’d say the incentives for poor countries that haven’t generated a lot of intellectual property of their own to enforce other peoples IP claims is pretty small. Interestingly, the US used to be famous for IP piracy back in the 19th century, when much of the literature and other copyrighted material was generated in Europe. Dickens was famously pissed off about it > [@](#): > > Indeed it may be said that if royalties which ought to have been paid in the United States on the novels of Scott, Dickens, and a host of others, on the dramatic adaptations of their stories, and on the operas of Gilbert and Sullivan when first produced, were now to be handed over with compound interest, Great Britain would no longer be a debtor nation to the United States. The contra account of American authors whose royalties were not paid by English publishers over the same period would be a drop in the ocean by comparison. (Pearson 106) So its hardly a new thing for countries that generate a lot of intellectual property to be ignored by the “pirates” of those that don’t ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/3 "2011-06-21T15:48:22Z")
Not just China. Counterfeiting anything you can name is a huge industry in Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, many others. From time to time here, they’ll pick someone to show as an example, usually someone who’s been slow with bribe payments, then bust them, publicly steamroller over the fake goods with American officials looking on, then the piracy all goes back to normal agan. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/4 "2011-06-21T15:58:57Z")
The construct or concept of intellectual property is in dispute in different moral systems. We all know the phrases like ‘music was meant to be free’. As such it is sometimes seen in different moral systems as selfish, inhumane and immoral to withhold such things from humanity and a basic right of humanity to make those products available. It can get be akin to withholding water from people and selling it at gouging prices during a emergency - this paradyne we can see with prescription drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/5 "2011-06-21T16:21:03Z")
Plus, piracy is good for China’s balance of trade, keeping money for movies and music inside the country instead of sending it to the creators. It is no wonder that the government, so good at cracking down on dissent, just can’t get it together to crack down on this. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/6 "2011-06-21T17:11:24Z")
Counterfeiting of music is also big in Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe. You can buy “special editions” of CDs made in Russia and other nations which are not legitimate ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/7 "2011-06-21T17:29:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The construct or concept of intellectual property is in dispute in different moral systems. We all know the phrases like ‘music was meant to be free’. As such it is sometimes seen in different moral systems as selfish, inhumane and immoral to withhold such things from humanity and a basic right of humanity to make those products available. It can get be akin to withholding water from people and selling it at gouging prices during a emergency - this paradyne we can see with prescription drugs. Pah. They’re doing it for money, pure and simple, in an environment in which there are no effective controls to stop them. “Music was meant to be free” is self-serving crap from Generation-X’ers who are too damned cheap to pay artists for the music they consume. Bottom line: make something easy to steal and people will steal it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/8 "2011-06-21T17:34:11Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Pah. They’re doing it for money, pure and simple, in an environment in which there are no effective controls to stop them. “Music was meant to be free” is self-serving crap from Generation-X’ers who are too damned cheap to pay artists for the music they consume. > > Bottom line: make something easy to steal and people will steal it. And this is the other moral system, accusing and judging others. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/9 "2011-06-21T18:24:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > And this is the other moral system, accusing and judging others. Actually, while you may have a legitimate rebuttal to Finagle’s attack on your comments, this is not it. There is no such “moral system” as you (apparently unaware of the irony) are now claiming, and your response is little more than a personal attack. Stick to the topic. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/10 "2011-06-21T18:30:07Z")
> [@Gilles\_de\_Rais](#): > > \*\*Why is counterfeiting so prevalent in China? \*\* > Versus other countries… You have not actually established that your premise is true, so I am not sure that you are going to get much of a productive discussion. It is certainly true that China has recently produced a lot of things in violation of others’ patents or copyrights, but you have not established that they are more prone to that activity than any other emerging industrial nation. You should consider supporting your premise or this thread is going to be hijacked into a completely different discussion. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/11 "2011-06-21T18:33:36Z")
Maybe they don’t mind copying Western technology because they never got any royalties for gunpowder, the printing press, pasta, or silk. (aside from silk, those others are questionable). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/12 "2011-06-21T18:42:06Z")
According to this 79% of counterfeits seized in the US were made in China. > **[China overwhelming U.S. with counterfeit goods | Homeland Security Newswire](https://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/china-overwhelming-us-counterfeit-goods)** > [@](#): > > In FY 2009, there were 14,841 seizures of counterfeit goods and unlicensed knock-offs imported into the United States, with a domestic value of $260.7 million. Goods from China accounted for 79 percent of the total domestic value for all goods seizures. No idea why though. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/13 "2011-06-21T18:51:38Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > They’re doing it for money, pure and simple, … Of course. **kanicbird** addressed the question of why citizens and police consider the crime to have low immorality and hence low priority. As to why China is the world’s leading counterfeiter, I’d guess (a) high tech, (b) low wages, (c) inability of U.S. to apply pressure, are three big reasons. Thailand has a lot of counterfeiting, but also anti-counterfeit policing motivated in part by U.S. or W.T.O. pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/14 "2011-06-21T19:26:05Z")
There are probably more immoral people in China than in any other country in the world, followed closely by India. Why? Because, of course, there are more people, total, in China than any other country. And like in any country, most of them are just going about their business honestly. But the ones just going about their business honestly don’t have much impact on the opposite side of the globe, so you mostly just notice the dishonest ones. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/15 "2011-06-21T20:30:52Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > According to this 79% of counterfeits seized in the US were made in China. That figure is only significant if we know what percentage of all legitimate products sold in the US are made in China. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/16 "2011-06-21T21:15:32Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > But in general, I’d say the incentives for poor countries that haven’t generated a lot of intellectual property of their own to enforce other peoples IP claims is pretty small. This. Once China starts generating a lot of intellectual property that appeals to the rest of the world, I predict a sudden shift in their attitude toward copyright and trademark. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/17 "2011-06-21T21:16:25Z")
Counterfeit goods offer a huge return for a small investment. Suppose you are a factory manager in China, making women’s pocketbooks. You might gross $2.00 making a department store brand bag. If you make fake Gucci bags, you can realize a gross profit of $10-$20.00. Plus, there are huge numbers of woemen and men obsessed with name brands-these people will buy fakes to get the look at a cutrate price. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/18 "2011-06-22T04:44:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That figure is only significant if we know what percentage of all legitimate products sold in the US are made in China. Very true. I suspect that many of the counterfeits are made on the same assembly lines as the genuine articles. How hard would it be to run an extra few thousand on the line after completing the order for the name brand? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/19 "2011-06-22T05:25:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The construct or concept of intellectual property is in dispute in different moral systems. We all know the phrases like ‘music was meant to be free’. [Interesting essay on that by SF writer Spider Robinson.](http://www.spiderrobinson.com/crazyyears.html) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294/20 "2011-06-22T15:18:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > This. Once China starts generating a lot of intellectual property that appeals to the rest of the world, I predict a sudden shift in their attitude toward copyright and trademark. That confuses the issue really. Counterfeiting isn’t about the theft of intellectual property so much as fraud. It’s about labelling something as the genuine article, when it’s not. Those counterfeit golf clubs don’t involve the theft of intellectual property. There’s no unique ideas involved. They’re just counterfeiting labels to stick on sub-par products. When they copy a protected design for a product is when the question of intellectual property comes into play. And I suspect it is more likely that we will stop pretending that ideas can be owned and bought and sold than anyone else adapting this silly system. The system created to provide an incentive for invention and creativity has been corrupted into a means of monopolism and private taxation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counterfeiting-so-prevalent-in-china/586294.md?page=2)