# Why is counting cards against the rules? How do they know you're doing it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862 "2005-02-19T05:47:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/1 "2005-02-19T05:47:28Z")
(This was a toss-up between GD and GQ; mods, move if you see fit.) A post by **Ellis Dee** in the Pepsi tilting thread reminded me of something I’ve always wondered about–why is it that counting cards is against the rules in casinos? You’re not using any special equipment; you’re using raw skill, and blackjack and poker are supposed to be games of skill as well as chance. I mean obviously the casino can set their own rules and kick you out whenever they feel like it, but I don’t see how there’s a real moral problem here, anymore than using your trivia knowledge in a game of Jeopardy is “cheating,” or knowing a lot of obscure words is “cheating” at Scrabble. Is there anyone who believes it’s morally wrong to count cards, and not just wrong because the rules say it’s wrong? And if it’s wrong, why? And how would a casino even know you’re counting? Unless you’re muttering to yourself like Rain Man or counting on your fingers, I don’t see how they’d find out. Do they make their judgement after you’ve won too much for their tastes? Or is there a specific pattern to the playing that emerges when someone is counting cards? In that case, it would seem to be a smarter move to blow a few hands in between the winnings to make it seem like more of a natural win. Wouldn’t card counting even be something that you’d do unconsciously if you’d been playing for awhile? I’d especially like to hear some gamblers’ or dealers’ views on this part of the post. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/2 "2005-02-19T06:25:50Z")
A counter will vary his/her bets depending on the number of 10-value cards remaining to be dealt. If not camoflaged, it will be pretty obvious that the player is counting. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/3 "2005-02-19T06:30:55Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > (I’ve always wondered about–why is it that counting cards is against the rules in casinos? . It has nothing to do with it being moral or not. A casino makes money because the odds are in its favor. They just don’t want any game or any way of playing a game that would reverse this situation. They’ve no intend to provide an income to professionnal gamblers. (and if they allowed card counting, they would be soon overwhelmed by people doing so and making a living out the casino’s pockets). And by the way, concerning poker, you don’t play poker against the casino, and for the same reason. They don’t want a game where skill is involved. They would soon be bankrupt otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/4 "2005-02-19T06:49:08Z")
If you want to know why it’s “fair” think of it this way: The casino, to project honesty, plays by strict rules. It accepts all bets within announced table limits. In games like blackjack their actual play of cards is strictly defined. Now if it’s “fair” for you to count cards, then why not the casino? They could instruct their expert dealers to count cards and not accept higher bets when odds turn poor for the house. Maybe they’ll stay on that soft seventeen. Let’s see how we all do then. This is how casinos protect themselves from the fact that they are so predictable. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/5 "2005-02-19T07:14:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **continuity eror** > I mean obviously the casino can set their own rules and kick you out whenever they feel like it, but I don’t see how there’s a real moral problem here, anymore than using your trivia knowledge in a game of Jeopardy is “cheating,” or knowing a lot of obscure words is “cheating” at Scrabble. Is there anyone who believes it’s morally wrong to count cards, and not just wrong because the rules say it’s wrong? And if it’s wrong, why? Using your trivia knowledge in Jeopardy! is what Jeopardy! is all about. Same with using obscure words in Scrabble. Neither of those things are against the rules. Card counting in blackjack is cheating. Cheating is morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/6 "2005-02-19T07:29:52Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Card counting in blackjack is cheating. Cheating is morally wrong. I wouldn’t call card counting cheating. However, the house can choose who they wish to deal to. Remember, a highly intelligent player couldn’t help but count cards if they had the skill. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/7 "2005-02-19T07:32:28Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > You’re not using any special equipment; you’re using raw skill, and blackjack and poker are supposed to be games of skill as well as chance. I’d just like to point out that it’s impossible to count cards in poker beyond calculating pot odds, which is quite legal. The deck is shuffled between every hand, so there’s nothing to count. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/8 "2005-02-19T07:37:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **rfgdxm** > I wouldn’t call card counting cheating. Its against the rules in every casino that I know of. Using a system to purposely break the rules is cheating. If you’re like Rainman and you can’t help but know what cards are left in the deck, I guess that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/9 "2005-02-19T07:47:07Z")
From what I have read about card-counting, it is perfectly legal, as long as no computers or other devices are used. It’s not “cheating”. And from what I understand, it’s not so much that casinos have a _rule_ against it, it’s that casinos simply reserve the right to refuse service to anyone they choose, and if they believe you are going to take too much of their money, they aren’t going to let you gamble there. I personally don’t think there’s anything immoral about counting cards; it’s merely a pragmatic decision on the part of the casino management not to let people do it. I don’t think they have any way to actually know if you’re counting. They’re basically guessing that you are. As already pointed out, they spot card-counters by how much they vary the amount of their bet. I would imagine that if you’re losing, they wouldn’t care, so I would think that to a certain degree, it IS a matter of “winning too much for their tastes”, as the OP suggests. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/10 "2005-02-19T08:00:19Z")
Hmm, if its not specifically against the rules, I have to change my position on this. Hypothetically speaking, if it were against the rules, I would consider it immoral. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/11 "2005-02-19T08:22:37Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Hmm, if its not specifically against the rules, I have to change my position on this. Hypothetically speaking, if it were against the rules, I would consider it immoral. I think the obvious problem would be that how could it ever be **proved** someone was mentally card counting? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/12 "2005-02-19T08:27:19Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Hmm, if its not specifically against the rules, I have to change my position on this. Hypothetically speaking, if it were against the rules, I would consider it immoral. It would be sort of a weird rule, as the player would have to ignore information that is right in his face. I can’t think of any other game where this is the case. Sort of like making Jepordy contestants ignore half of the clue. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/13 "2005-02-19T08:31:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **rfgdxm** > I think the obvious problem would be that how could it ever be proved someone was mentally card counting? What does proving it have to do with anything? If you are cheating you are doing something morally wrong. It doesn’t matter if someone proves it or not. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/14 "2005-02-19T08:33:13Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > What does proving it have to do with anything? If you are cheating you are doing something morally wrong. It doesn’t matter if someone proves it or not. But because of the impossibility of proving it, I doubt any casino has any written rule against it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/15 "2005-02-19T08:58:59Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Using your trivia knowledge in Jeopardy! is what Jeopardy! is all about. Same with using obscure words in Scrabble. Neither of those things are against the rules. Card counting in blackjack is cheating. Cheating is morally wrong. Cheating at cards in a casino is usually illegal I think. I don’t believe counting cards is actually illegal but the casino will kick you out. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/16 "2005-02-19T09:28:03Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > But because of the impossibility of proving it, I doubt any casino has any written rule against it. Not true. Most casinos, and especially the corporate casinos have specific rules against counting. This is especially important in states where “games of chance” are specifically regulated. Missouri, in particular, had a big to-do about this a few years ago, as to whether the “riverboat” (hah!) casinos could refuse service to someone they suspected of counting cards in blackjack. They don’t actually need to prove it. They just need to demonstrate that you are winning (or not losing) significantly more than the average. There’s a reason casino companies provide a lot of campaign support in state politics. The sad fact is that with proper procedures they could prevent anyone from effectively counting. The reality is that is just isn’t worth their time. The few people that actually put the effort into counting strategies and have the (significant) bankroll to support the career aren’t a major detriment to casinos. But when the catch them, they boot them. OTOH, if they catch you literally cheating (a la _Casino_), well, the movies aren’t far off in that regard. Do you write with your right hand? Better be honest, or you’ll have to learn to write with the left. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/17 "2005-02-19T09:28:09Z")
I saw a special on Vegas on the Travel channel and they were very clear that it is not illegal, but if they suspect you of it they’ll kick you out. I also have friends who have an organized blackjack group that do count cards, and have been kicked out of several casinos for doing so. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/18 "2005-02-19T09:35:29Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Hmm, if its not specifically against the rules, I have to change my position on this. Hypothetically speaking, if it were against the rules, I would consider it immoral. Well maybe I shouldn’t have said it’s not against the rules. I mean, if a casino has a policy of not allowing card-counters to play, then I suppose you could call that a rule. I don’t see how that makes it immoral, though. It’s certainly not _illegal_. Casinos can have whatever rules they feel like (to a certain extent). They could say you have to wear a tie to sit at the blackjack table. That doesn’t mean it’s _immoral_ not to wear a tie; it just means you can’t gamble there. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/19 "2005-02-19T14:25:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **blowero** > Well maybe I shouldn’t have said it’s not against the rules. I mean, if a casino has a policy of not allowing card-counters to play, then I suppose you could call that a rule. I don’t see how that makes it immoral, though. When you play a game and do something against the rules to give yourself an unfair advantage, you are cheating. Cheating is immoral. Its that simple. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/20 "2005-02-19T15:24:09Z")
Speaking of a casino’s moral or legal obligations… I have a paperback, “Winner’s Guide to Texas Hold 'em Poker,” by Ken Warren. Chapter 5, entitled “History of Poker and a Little Trivia” is very short (1.5 pages) and consists of a series of bullets, of which the very last is: **Las Vegas casinos are not legally obligated to pay off their gambling debts.** If this is true, I suppose there are good reasons for such a loophole, and it probably has no influence on 99.99% of a casino’s payouts. I suppose the rule would be invoked when the Casino knows for sure that someone’s cheating but they just can’t prove it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862.md?page=2)