# Why is counting cards against the rules? How do they know you're doing it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862 "2005-02-19T05:47:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/41 "2005-02-19T17:33:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **snailboy** > That is a double standard. You state that counting cards is immoral because it is against the rules, yet breaking the rules of the nazis is cool. Oh c’mon, do I have to explain the difference? Morality is in the eye of the beholder. If you have Nazis making there own rules that are immoral in your eyes and you break them, you are not acting immorally. If you choose to play a game with others and you cheat, you are acting immorally in most peoples eyes. Don’t make me beat a dead horse. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/42 "2005-02-19T17:53:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **snailboy** > I believe the purpose of this thread is to determine if a rule against counting cards is ethical by most people’s standards. If the rule is immoral, according to you, it’s not immoral to break it. In my opinion it is. If someone is hosting a game with rules that you think are unfair, the correct thing to do is to not play or do something to have the rules changed. Anne Frank didn’t have a choice ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/43 "2005-02-19T18:10:01Z")
Heh, this is turning into one goofy-ass thread, with debates on the meanings of morality and ethics and whatnot. Doesn’t it just come down to the casinos being private property? As such, they can expel/ban anyone they wish, though if they do so on the basis of a government-defined “protected class” (race, religion, gender, disabilty etc.) they may be subject to a civil suit. Incidentally, the best way to card-count is to have a team of associates. Play the minimum at a table from the beginning and come up with a subtle signal to bring over one of your buddies when the shoe is favourable. Continue betting the minimum while he bets the maximum. Do not look at your partner or take notice of his presence. Of course, the casinos are experts at spotting this, so at best it might work only a few times unless you’re very very good at it. Having your partner lurk in the background, obviously waiting, is a big tip-off. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/44 "2005-02-19T18:40:26Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Oh c’mon, do I have to explain the difference? Morality is in the eye of the beholder. If you have Nazis making there own rules that are immoral in your eyes and you break them, you are not acting immorally. If you choose to play a game with others and you cheat, you are acting immorally in most peoples eyes. Don’t make me beat a dead horse. You are being illogical. At the begining, you state that morality is in the eye of the beholder. Then, literally two sentences later, you define morality based upon what “most people” think. While these can both be true, you can’t use both definitions when trying to state your point. So, let’s change one (ok two) words of the midde sentence and see what happens: If you have Casinos making (their) own rules that are immoral in your eyes and you break them, you are not acting immorally. Is this statement still logical to you? It is to me. But I guess its truth depends on which definition of morality you choose to use for any given sitation: the individual or the group. And would it matter to you if the group happened to also believe that card counting at BJ is not immoral? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/45 "2005-02-19T18:40:52Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > Well, you did commit a Godwin. A big one. If you participate in a game and you cheat, you are being unethical by most peoples standards. If you hide Anne Frank in your house and break the rules of the Nazis, you aren’t unethical by most standards. Now that you know where I stand on this… :rolleyes: But what if it turned out that Anne Frank counted cards? Quite frankly, I don’t understand why anyone would bother trying to count cards. Casinos do things that make it difficult or impossible to do so. Some games I’ve seen: 6 decks, all cards dealt face up from an auto-shuffler. Can’t count cards with that many decks, especially with them getting shuffled occasionally. 6 decks, all cards dealt face up from a shoe. Maybe you could count from this, but it’d be tricky with that many decks. 2 decks, first two cards dealt face down. You could have some idea of what is out there depending on how other people play–cards are flipped up on double-downs, splits, and busts. Probably impossible to get enough data before a new shuffle, especially at a full table. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/46 "2005-02-19T18:43:40Z")
Well, that should have been “especially with them getting shuffled continously.” In any case, I’d say that it may be against the house rules, but not intrinsically against the rules of the game. ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/47 "2005-02-19T19:46:56Z")
X-ray come on man. Casino’s are the business of **taking your money**! They have no income if they don’t profit from you. Anything you could do to actually win money over them is going to be frowned upon by the casino. Their interests come before yours, and before any morality even enetrs the picture. How could you be worried about how ethical it is to gain advantage over a multi-billion dollar industry with a technique that is clearly not defined as cheating…anywhere…ever! They own the building, they reserve the right to kick you out if you count cards, and this has nothing to do with it because illegal or immoral. It has to do with passing that point where they can make a profit off you. Although they won’t kick you out if you use the statistically correct, by the book, actions for every hand you play in. That is because even by using strategy like this, you still have a statistical disadvantage over the house average… by counting cards you raise that average by about 3-4% i believe it is, giving you a slight advantage over them. It is neither cheating nor unethical, it is just a mental tool at your disposal. Just like 6 deck shoes are at theirs. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/48 "2005-02-19T19:55:32Z")
**macabresoul** , I already stated that **if** it is against the rules to count cards and you are aware of that and do it anyway, it would be unethical. I doesn’t matter how much money the casinos make. If they make a rule and you purposefully break it to make a profit, you are cheating. ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/49 "2005-02-19T20:01:10Z")
Also, the house has a distinct advantage to every game you play in a casino. You think Roulette always had a ‘00’ slot? This was invented in America to double the houses edge. Even in poker the the house wins. You can take all the other plays money but the rake will always get you. Counting cards is a bit misleading too I think. All it is is a mental tally of what cards have a better probability to come up than others. ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/50 "2005-02-19T20:04:44Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > **macabresoul** , I already stated that **if** it is against the rules to count cards and you are aware of that and do it anyway, it would be unethical. I doesn’t matter how much money the casinos make. If they make a rule and you purposefully break it to make a profit, you are cheating. Here is a good quote off a blackjack site: > [@](#): > > No. The casinos would like you to believe that card counting is illegal, immoral, and fattening, but the fact is that card counters are simply using a greater level of skill than the typical blackjack player. The Nevada courts have ruled that blackjack players are free to use any information that is made available to them, provided that there is no collusion between a player and casino personnel. For example, if a dealer accidentally handles the cards in such a way that a player can see the dealer’s hole card, the player can make use of this information without breaking the law ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/51 "2005-02-19T20:06:17Z")
It is not against the ‘rules’ of the casino. It is against their interests. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/52 "2005-02-19T20:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Enderw24** > You are being illogical. > At the begining, you state that morality is in the eye of the beholder. Then, literally two sentences later, you define morality based upon what “most people” think. I did not define morality based upon what most people think. I said most people think that cheating at games is immoral. What’s moral and what isn’t is still in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/53 "2005-02-20T00:32:14Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > When you play a game and do something against the rules to give yourself an unfair advantage, you are cheating. Cheating is immoral. Its that simple. I think Bricker nailed it: > [@](#): > > In Atlantic City, the rules of each game are a matter of state regulation. That is, a casino cannot simply make up a game; any game they offer must be defined by state regulation. There are no rules against card counting in New Jersey. Period. Banning players who the casino suspects of card-counting is a _regulation_ of the casino, but it is not a _rule_ of the game. I defy you to find a rule posted on any blackjack table anywhere in the world that says, “No card counting”. Bricker’s right, casino games have very specific rules that are approved by gaming commissions. The casinos can’t just make up their own games, like “Aha! You sneezed, that means you lose 50 bucks.” So card counting is not cheating, and hence it is not immoral. As pointed out already many times, asking people not to count cards is asking them to deliberately disregard information that they have already been willingly given. It’s like ordering someone to forget that it’s stupid to split fives. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/54 "2005-02-20T00:34:52Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > The casinos can’t just make up their own games, like “Aha! You sneezed, that means you lose 50 bucks.” So card counting is not cheating, and hence it is not immoral. That’s not a real game?! Damn! > [@](#): > > It’s like ordering someone to forget that it’s stupid to split fives. Double-damn! ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/55 "2005-02-20T01:09:42Z")
I learned to count a long time ago, more as a hobby than anything else. The casinos know you’re doing it because of the things you do to take advantage of the count. It doesn’t even have to be illogical things like splitting tens or standing on 12 against a 10. Dealers notice when a player sits for a long time playing flawless basic strategy, so it’s odd if that person suddenly takes insurance, or stands on 16 against a 10. > [@](#): > > Well, the time it takes to shuffle six decks of cards that often may have something to do with it. Whenever the cards are being shuffled, nobody’s losing money (unless you pay a second person to shuffle the cards while the dealer deals from a six-set that’s already been shuffled.) This is true. More shuffles also encourage people to leave the table, because they’re annoyed by the delays or because the shuffle just provides a natural break. They’d prefer not to do it at all–hence the dreaded auto-shufflers. They probably lose more from the pauses and the players leaving than they would ever save by thwarting counters with reduced penetration. > [@](#): > > Even in poker the the house wins. You can take all the other plays money but the rake will always get you. The rake doesn’t always “get you”; a great many people consistently win enough to “beat the rake” and make money playing poker. (Me, for one.) ---
**Author:** ![macabresoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e68b1a/32.png) [@macabresoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macabresoul)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/56 "2005-02-20T01:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJThe rake doesn’t always “get you”; a great many people consistently win enough to “beat the rake” and make money playing poker. (Me, for one.)[/QUOTE] You know what I meant. I meant the casino profits no matter what. Not that you can’t beat the rake. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/57 "2005-02-20T01:45:32Z")
I just finished reading the book “Bringing Down the House”, the story of a group of MIT students who formed an extracurricular blackjack club to master the art of card counting. They developed an extraordinarily complex system involving teams of counters that took the casinos for 3.3 million. They solved the problem of individual counters, how do you vary your bet without being noticed over a long period of time. By using individuals betting the minimum while they count, and only calling in someone else to make the big bets when the deck was good they were able to achieve over a 10% advantage over the house. It is a fascinating read made more as I am an acquaintance of one of the members of the team. They were pursued relentlessly by casino management and security, but the worst that could happen would be an ejection from the casino and a liftetime banning. There is no law against it as long as no device is being used. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/58 "2005-02-20T02:39:16Z")
> [@fruitbat](#): > > the worst that could happen would be an ejection from the casino and a liftetime banning. except for the fishy stuff that happened toward the end of the book- break-ins, harassment by casino goons (borderline assault/ threating behavior without the battery), etc. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/59 "2005-02-20T03:18:59Z")
> [@ScoobyTX](#): > > except for the fishy stuff that happened toward the end of the book- break-ins, harassment by casino goons (borderline assault/ threating behavior without the battery), etc. :eek: True, but it is the opinion of my acquaintance that the harassment was from a member of the competing team and not from the casino itself. I tend to believe that as well based on the narrative in the book. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862/60 "2005-02-20T04:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > You know what I meant. I meant the casino profits no matter what. Not that you can’t beat the rake. True. I’ve just seen an awful lot of articles since the “poker craze” took off implying that poker is subject to the same adage of “the house always wins” as, say, roulette. It’s true that the house always profits, but you’re not betting against the house. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-counting-cards-against-the-rules-how-do-they-know-youre-doing-it/290862.md?page=4)