# Why is executing someone painlessly difficult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932 "2015-07-01T03:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/41 "2015-07-01T15:57:49Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > …The real issue is that the debate is on false pretenses. Criminals didn’t give their victims painless deaths, and so the state has no obligation to do so either. But the debate has been co-opted by one side who argue about whether the drugs are perfectly painless,\*\* when we really should be discussing whether murderers and traitors deserve comfortable deaths at all\*\*. That really should be modified to say that we really should be discussing whether murders and traitors deserve death at all. That’s the question that has to be answered first (in our so-called civilized society). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/42 "2015-07-01T16:04:14Z")
If it were possible yo do a statistical analysis of everyone in the history of humanity who has died so far, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of those deaths would have entailed pain and suffering. Painless deaths would likely be the exception. Pain is the body’s response to damage, and killing it is by definite causing damage, so from an evolutionary standpoint death is supposed to hurt. I always have trouble understanding the objection that our society has to pain and suffering. It’s like we think it is something wrong or unnatural, or that we somehow have some sort of right not to feel it. Nobody here gets out alive, and for all but a lucky few the thing that kills us is going to hurt a lot, and probably for a long time before it’s finished. That’s just the way it is. To me, it seems that any pain during the execution itself is actually incidental and not really worthy of comment compared to the immense amount of suffering the inmate undoubtedly goes through in anticipation of the execution during the days weeks and years preceding it. That mental anguish seems monumental compared to whatever few minutes of suffering might be endured Lest anyone get me wrong, I used to be in favor of the death penalty but now I’m not not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/43 "2015-07-01T16:10:40Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Okay, well why not just give them pills, if a nurse won’t do it? Surely there are pills they could themselves concoct to painlessly end a life. Government scientist puts together a couple of widely available chemicals. It still doesn’t seem ‘impossible’ to achieve to me. Because all drugs intended for human consumption must be approved by the food and drug regulatory body. Giving drugs to a human that are not so approved is an offence. States are bound to obey federal law. They cannot just make up concoctions in a back room and give them to an individual. Nor can they buy drugs on the street. That’s called trafficking and carries heavy penalties under federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/44 "2015-07-01T16:11:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I can think of absolutely no reason for states to use anything but N2 asphyxiation. Even the most “aggressive” states have moved away from the idea that an execution has to be nasty, in and of itself - no matter how many proponents of violent, painful, “messy” executions there might be, in and out of prisons. > > The arguments against each specific method come from anti-DP arguments, no matter how carefully they’re concealed (and they often aren’t). It’s the same kind of tactics used against abortion and guns: can’t outlaw the central thing, so make it impossible through building walls around it. > > If we’re going to execute people, and there’s a consensus that it be fast, painless and effective, and that the gory methods of the past are inappropriate… I invite any and all arguments against strapping the vic into a comfortable chair, with whatever ambience is deemed appropriate (me, I’d post crime-scene photos across all of their arc of vision), and slowly fill the chamber with N2. > > Cheap, simple, impossible to screw up with a modicum of engineering care, and absolutely no way to block through stupid legal shenanigans. And absolutely effective. What happens when the condemned person doesn’t cooperate and holds his breath? AFAIK, that was the reason why executions with poison gas were routinely botched. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/45 "2015-07-01T16:12:46Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > At the risk of coming across as authoritarian when I am really not…I’ve never understood the “drug companies won’t sell it” argument. IF execution is in the public interest (certainly debatable), why doesn’t the state _compel_ the drug companies to sell it the drugs? The government (and, by extension, most Americans) has no problem compelling me to pay taxes, and using those taxes to do all sorts of things I find morally objectionable, even killing (drone strikes, for example) because it’s claimed to be in the public interest. The (local) government had no problem changing the parking rules and forcing me to move my boat because it deemed real estate prices (which boat parking was perceived to threaten) a pulic interest. I occasionally have to endure gov’t compulsion that’s not in MY interest and to which I object – what makes the drug manufacturers so special the same principle does not apply to them? You’re assuming the drug companies are American. It’s my understanding that they are not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/46 "2015-07-01T16:21:16Z")
> [@CC](#): > > That really should be modified to say that we really should be discussing whether murders and traitors deserve death at all. That’s the question that has to be answered first (in our so-called civilized society). It’s a question that _has_ been answered. The answer is “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/47 "2015-07-01T16:25:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > For that matter, doesn’t the FBI have a chemistry lab and the technical know-how to manufacture all the drugs they want and then sell to the states? The FBI would still have to comply with food an drug regulations for drugs intended for human consumption, as would the states which purchase and use them. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/48 "2015-07-01T16:26:35Z")
I’m against the death penalty, but if we’re going to do it, use a guillotine and broadcast the execution. 1) It’s painless and quick and 2) public support will dry up pretty fast. People blaming the anti-DP side are wrong. It’s the pro-DP side who are trying to pretty up executions so no one gets squeamish, in order to maintain public support. And coincidentally, making executions more painful, more expensive, and more difficult to perform correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/49 "2015-07-01T16:31:13Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > You’re assuming the drug companies are American. It’s my understanding that they are not. That’s correct. One of the key drugs in the 3 drug cocktail is only made in Europe. European Community laws prohibit the export of that drug for executions. That’s why there is now a shortage of that drug in the US. Apparently that drug is not used very much for other purposes, so the ban on export to the US doesn’t have much impact other than on the death states. However, if the death states then started using other drugs, like pentobarbital and the Michael Jackson anaesthesia, the European export rules would apply o those drugs as well, which could create shortages in drugs commonly used in the medical system. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/50 "2015-07-01T16:38:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Because all drugs intended for human consumption must be approved by the food and drug regulatory body. Giving drugs to a human that are not so approved is an offence. Because their safety for human use must be assured - so they _don’t_ cause death. Future generations are going to wonder what the hell was wrong with us. And not just future ones, either. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/51 "2015-07-01T16:54:22Z")
I don’t want to start an entirely new GQ thread for this, so here goes: Has there ever been a legal execution by shooting (i. e. firing squad) in the United States that was botched? I don’t think there was. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/52 "2015-07-01T17:01:07Z")
No recently but yes. > **[Wallace Wilkerson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Wilkerson)** > > Wallace Wilkerson (c. 1834 – May 16, 1879) was an American stockman who was sentenced to death by the Territory of Utah for the murder of William Baxter. Wilkerson professed his innocence, but chose to die by firing squad over hanging or decapitation. The execution was botched; Wilkerson took up to 27 minutes to die because the firing squad missed his heart. > His case, Wilkerson v. Utah, was heard by the Supreme Court of the United States and continues to be cited in present-day case law involvin... ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/53 "2015-07-01T17:04:17Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > No recently but yes. > > [Wallace Wilkerson - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_Wilkerson) Indeed, and the last botched shooting occurred as late as 1951: > [@](#): > > In September 1951, Eliseo J. Mares became the second condemned man to suffer the consequences of a botched execution. > > Mares was the first prisoner to be put to death in the new prison at the Point of the Mountain. The old penitentiary in Sugar House had been the execution site since 1900; before then the sentences were carried out in counties where the crime took place. > > When Mares was shot, newspaper stories carried the barest of details. Not until 25 years later, in a reminiscence by one of the witnesses, Salt Lake Tribune reporter Clark Lobb, was it disclosed that Mares “died silently and horribly.” Two of the four bullets fired from 15 feet away struck Mares in the hip and abdomen. It was several minutes before the prisoner was declared dead. [http://historytogo.utah.gov/salt\_lake\_tribune/in\_another\_time/012896.html](http://historytogo.utah.gov/salt_lake_tribune/in_another_time/012896.html) ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/54 "2015-07-01T17:12:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s correct. One of the key drugs in the 3 drug cocktail is only made in Europe. European Community laws prohibit the export of that drug for executions. That’s why there is now a shortage of that drug in the US. The People’s Republic of China has long modelled it’s executions on those of America, along with many other neo-liberal market reforms ( World Leaders in Executions for over Ten Glorious Years ! ), so maybe they can spare some of the necessary. If nipping down to Walmart is not an option for state governors, then perhaps the US can outsource the killings to China, and have them do it cheaply. For some bizarre reason, the late, unspeakable, Robert Ludlum never penned a work called **The Chapman Protocol**. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/55 "2015-07-01T17:23:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Because all drugs intended for human consumption must be approved by the food and drug regulatory body. Giving drugs to a human that are not so approved is an offence. States are bound to obey federal law. They cannot just make up concoctions in a back room and give them to an individual. Nor can they buy drugs on the street. That’s called trafficking and carries heavy penalties under federal law. They could have them approved by the FDA. I know that can be a long process but at the end of it, what could the FDA’s reason for denying approval? Or an exemption to FDA rules might be inserted in the relevant laws. Or the judiciary could interpret the laws and clarify that it is not the legislator’s intent to apply safety rules to drugs designed to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/56 "2015-07-01T17:39:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s a question that _has_ been answered. The answer is “yes”. I must have missed the memo. Whew! Glad that’s settled. _À la lanterne, citoyens!_ ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/57 "2015-07-01T17:41:48Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > What happens when the condemned person doesn’t cooperate and holds his breath? AFAIK, that was the reason why executions with poison gas were routinely botched. How long can you hold your breath? I’ll start counting now… (envisions the classic Lucy routine, with the old lady and the watch). Holding one’s breath and then suddenly taking in a lungful of painful gas at a much higher concentration than the starting levels produces a very dramatic effect, sure to make even strong prison wardens cry. Holding one’s breath in an increasingly inert atmosphere should have no effect on anyone who’s raised a child. Their first giant lungful a minute or so in will have no particular effect. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/58 "2015-07-01T17:43:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I must have missed the memo. Whew! Glad that’s settled. It’s been put to referendum and other public vote many times. Sometimes it’s voted down. Most times it’s voted to continue. You may disagree and decry the trog majority among us, but being stupid about it gains nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/59 "2015-07-01T17:47:00Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > They could have them approved by the FDA. > > I know that can be a long process but at the end of it, what could the FDA’s reason for denying approval? Sure, they could. Just responding to the idea that the FBI could just cook something up in their crime labs and the “problem”'s solved. There are no short cuts. > [@](#): > > Or an exemption to FDA rules might be inserted in the relevant laws. Also an option. But, would take a considerable debate in the Congress, and presumably could be filibustered in the Senate by death penalty opponents. > [@](#): > > Or the judiciary could interpret the laws and clarify that it is not the legislator’s intent to apply safety rules to drugs designed to kill. Except these aren’t drugs designed to kill. They are drugs which have legitimate medical purposes. There would have to be considerable ambiguity in the statute before the courts could make that ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/60 "2015-07-01T17:51:31Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Except these aren’t drugs designed to kill. They are drugs which have legitimate medical purposes. There would have to be considerable ambiguity in the statute before the courts could make that ruling. And there are tools used in routine abortion that have been subject to similar control laws by states wishing to end abortion. Ditto for trivial gun issues. I get fairly exasperated by such “nibbled to death by cats!” legal approaches, but more so by the structure that allows itself to be nibbled when there are alternatives. Fine, don’t use lethal drugs or require any need for participation of medical personnel whose ethics, reputation or license might be damaged. It seems pretty simple to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932.md?page=4)