# Why is executing someone painlessly difficult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932 "2015-07-01T03:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/101 "2015-07-03T05:47:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [AMA Code of Medical Ethics/Opinion 2.06 - Capital Punishment](http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/medical-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion206.page?) > > [Official American Nurse’s Association Position Statements/Nurses’ Role in Capital Punishment](http://www.nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/Policy-Advocacy/Positions-and-Resolutions/ANAPositionStatements/Position-Statements-Alphabetically/prtetcptl14447.pdf) > > [National Association of Emergency Medical Technicians/New Position Statement Opposes Participation in Executions](http://www.naemt.org/WhatsNewALLNEWS/10-02-18/New_Position_Statement_Opposes_EMS_Participation_in_Executions.aspx) True, but we’re edging into semantics territory. Those links contain words like “should not,” “opposes” and so on. Just because those organizations disapprove of those actions, that does not mean that they are expressly forbidden. As I said in my previous post, some of the info was what I’ve picked up in the last 7+ years. The rest I got from my brother, a captain at Kentucky State Reformatory. Any information he provided (and, having been a CO for 12-13 years he knows quite a bit) that is incorrect, blame me for asking the wrong questions, or paraphrasing him incorrectly. What I got right about the prison aspect, credit to him. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/102 "2015-07-03T05:57:09Z")
Missed the edit window. Regarding the AMA, however, I did find this quote on the wiki for Lethal Injection, and I think it’s relevant: > [@American Medical Association](#): > > The American Medical Association believes that a physician’s opinion on capital punishment is a personal decision. Since the AMA is founded on preserving life, they argue that a doctor “should not be a participant” in executions in any professional capacity with the exception of “certifying death, provided that the condemned has been declared dead by another person” and “relieving the acute suffering of a condemned person while awaiting execution”.[49] Amnesty International argues that the AMA’s position effectively “prohibits doctors from participating in executions.”[50] The AMA, however, does not have the authority to prohibit doctors from participation in lethal injection, nor does it have the authority to revoke medical licenses, since this is the responsibility of the individual states. Based off that link, **Fear Itself** , I could lay out a situation where we’re both right. As I stated before, it seems like a semantics issue. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/103 "2015-07-03T10:27:11Z")
So long as we both agree that most lethal injections are not performed by doctors, nurses or EMTs, yeah, we’re both right. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/104 "2015-07-03T12:30:32Z")
But, at the same time, there has to be a doctor present in order to officially pronounce the convict as deceased. And a nurse generally starts the IV, even if they are not the one who pushes the medication. And the AMA may not approve, but they can take no steps to reprimand a provider who participates. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/105 "2015-07-03T12:45:09Z")
1. Medical means of painless execution would require medical professionals and pharm companies to risk becoming pariahs within their profession and industry. 2. Death penalty opponents and the squeamish public will not tolerate the painless yet violent means of execution available. 3. Death penalty advocates are indifferent to the offender’s suffering, so they are not much interested in non-violent, non-medical, and painless means of execution. So we’re kind of stuck with the result of a bunch of stubborn people refusing to come together on a difficult decision. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/106 "2015-07-03T12:46:49Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Prison and jails house what? 3 million people in the US? And you want to make policy because you are scared of 2 guys? Who weren’t on death row anyway? Really now? > > Those guys don’t frighten me. Nor do plane crashes. I base my risk assessment on statistics, not media sensationalism. Then again, I’m an ultra-liberal by US standards. Rational risk assessment is what we do. > At any rate, I think the OP has been answered. Well good. So I assume you ultra liberals have no concern about guns, based on your commitment to risk assessment. I’m not a first grader at Sandy Hook, nor am I a black congregant in SC, ergo, I’m golden. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/107 "2015-07-03T13:20:58Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > But, at the same time, there has to be a doctor present in order to officially pronounce the convict as deceased. That is approved by the AMA. > [@Superdude](#): > > And a nurse generally starts the IV, even if they are not the one who pushes the medication. Cite? And I mean a cite that nurses start the IV more often than not, not just an isolated case where a single nurse defied the ANA. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/108 "2015-07-03T13:35:08Z")
[Journal of the American Medical Association (reprinted with permission on deathpenaltyinfo.org)](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2264) > [@](#): > > AMA policy has prohibited physician participation in capital punishment for nearly 3 decades, and the AMA has periodically reaffirmed, revised, and publicly spoken out against violation of this policy. The AMA has gone beyond exhortation, however, by enforcing its long established policy prohibiting participation in capital punishment. The AMA’s bylaws empower its Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs (CEJA) to act on ethical trans-gressions. The Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs generally relies on the findings and decisions of courts and of state licensing boards as the basis for its disciplinary actions. However, because no court or board has taken action against physicians who have violated the prohibition against participating in capital punishment, the AMA appointed an investigating committee to seek evidence of unethical conduct and to determine if further action was warranted. The investigating committee found such evidence and reported its findings to CEJA. After receiving the committee’s report, CEJA initiated disciplinary proceedings, observing strict procedural due process,22 including confidentiality of the proceedings and findings, and developed new evidence under its own procedural rules.\*\* At the conclusion of the process, CEJA revoked one physician’s membership in the AMA for participation in execution by lethal injection.\*\* Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/109 "2015-07-03T13:38:24Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If it were possible yo do a statistical analysis of everyone in the history of humanity who has died so far, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of those deaths would have entailed pain and suffering. Painless deaths would likely be the exception. > > Pain is the body’s response to damage, and killing it is by definite causing damage, so from an evolutionary standpoint death is supposed to hurt. > > I always have trouble understanding the objection that our society has to pain and suffering. It’s like we think it is something wrong or unnatural, or that we somehow have some sort of right not to feel it. > > Nobody here gets out alive, and for all but a lucky few the thing that kills us is going to hurt a lot, and probably for a long time before it’s finished. That’s just the way it is. > > To me, it seems that any pain during the execution itself is actually incidental and not really worthy of comment compared to the immense amount of suffering the inmate undoubtedly goes through in anticipation of the execution during the days weeks and years preceding it. That mental anguish seems monumental compared to whatever few minutes of suffering might be endured > > Lest anyone get me wrong, I used to be in favor of the death penalty but now I’m not not. The importance of a painless execution is not, I suspect, concern for the suffering of the inmate; it’s concern over the suffering of the _executioners._ Taking a life, even if you feel it’s justified and appropriate, is traumatizing - just ask almost any soldier who’s ever had to kill an enemy. Seeing another person in agony because of your actions is probably worse. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/110 "2015-07-03T14:02:35Z")
Messy methods of execution would carry a risk of spreading blood-borne disease. You’d have to decontaminate the area after a messy execution if the condemned had hepatitis B or C or HIV. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/111 "2015-07-03T15:44:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [Journal of the American Medical Association (reprinted with permission on deathpenaltyinfo.org)](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/2264) Bolding mine. [Counterpoint](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/04/30/doctors-in-the-death-chamber/doctors-can-and-do-participate-in-executions) to your link above. From my linked article: > [@NYTimes](#): > > That said, the popular conception that doctors “cannot” participate in executions is simply untrue. They can, and they do. (A doctor was on hand during the botched execution of Clayton Lockett in Oklahoma, but his role in the events remains unclear.) Numerous doctors have participated in hundreds of executions over the past three decades. My research has determined that none has ever been disciplined by a state medical board for participation in an execution, and laws preclude such discipline in most states. Moreover, the ethical guidelines of the American Medical Association are just that – guidelines. The harshest punishment the association could dole out is revocation of A.M.A. membership, which is not much of an enforcement mechanism given that only about 20 percent of doctors are members of the association. From your link: > [@article Fear Itself found](#): > > Physicians who are asked to assist in capital punishment should remember that transgressions against ethical obligations **may** evoke sanctions against their licenses by state medical boards and elicit disciplinary actions against membership by their medical societies. Bolding mine. Also, in your link, the line " The investigating committee found such evidence and reported its findings to CEJA. After receiving the committee’s report, CEJA initiated disciplinary proceedings, observing strict procedural due process,22 including confidentiality of the proceedings and findings, and developed new evidence under its own procedural rules. At the conclusion of the process, CEJA revoked one physician’s membership in the AMA for participation in execution by lethal injection" reads - to me - that the CEJA investigated (or had someone else investigate) the doctor you referred to in your link. They completed their investigation, developed new rules, then revoked his membership in the AMA for rules he broke that weren’t rules when it happened. Furthermore, about the only thing that the AMA can do is revoke their membership in the AMA. They do not have the ability to revoke a doctor’s license; just his membership. > [@article Fear Itself found](#): > > Medical licensing boards ordinarily address illegal activities of physicians and complaints relating to patient care. Transgressions of other kinds, including ethics violations, usually do not trigger disciplinary proceedings. **Executions are legal; therefore, in states that require the presence of physicians at executions, licensing boards—established by state law and quasi-legal—are unlikely to take action against the licenses of physicians who participate.** North Carolina is an exception, as noted above. Again, emphasis mine. > [@article Fear Itself found](#): > > Currently 38 states allow the death penalty and, of those, 35 either require (n=17) or permit (n=18) physician participation in executions. I’m having trouble finding any statistics that compare doctor vs nurse in starting IVs, one way or the other. I’ll withdraw that, but over the course of my career, I can count the number of doctors I’ve seen start an IV on a patient on one hand. When I said that nurses started more IVs, I was referring to in normal clinical settings, not specifically in prisons. So any confusion on that point may have been that we were using different qualifiers. I do have a question about your line “So long as we both agree that most lethal injections are not performed by doctors, nurses or EMTs, yeah, we’re both right.” Who do you think is actually administering the medications? Unless the protocol is different in Kentucky, I can assure you that it’s someone with medical training. It’s not the warden, or any of the guards. An [article](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/24/execution-lethal-injection-drugs/13086699/) in the 7/25/2014 copy of USAToday says, “States do not reveal the identity of the executioner. It could be a physician, nurse, EMT or someone else with training.” [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/112 "2015-07-03T16:11:24Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Who do you think is actually administering the medications? Unless the protocol is different in Kentucky, I can assure you that it’s someone with medical training. It’s not the warden, or any of the guards With all due respect, I have more confidence in the SDMB’s resident prison doctor, **Qadgop the Mercotan** , who works at a maximum security prison in a system with over 20,000 inmates: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18483777](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18483777) [QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I’m not executing anybody. Nor are any of my colleagues in Corrections Medicine. To do so would also violate the standards put out by the National Commission on Correctional Health Care. [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17337824](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=17337824) > [@](#): > > And since Nurse Anesthetists are licensed RNs first, they and their licensing boards tend to frown upon participating in an execution. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12927207](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12927207) [QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] [QUOTE=Canadjun] what about hiring doctors or nurses who have had their licenses revoked for one reason or another? [/QUOTE] It’d sure end their hopes of ever getting their license restored, if they decided to use their skills for state-sponsored execution. [/QUOTE] [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7411932](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7411932) [QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] In the US, it’s unethical for a doctor to participate in an execution, and for one to do so would cost him his license to practice medicine. [/QUOTE] \*\*Qadgop \*\*said it, I believe it, and that settles it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/113 "2015-07-03T16:18:05Z")
My main point was that they were not forbidden from doing so. They faced serious consequences, yes. And if they choose to participate, they understand the risks. But the AMA itself cannot bar a physician from an execution. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/114 "2015-07-03T16:19:46Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > My main point was that they were not forbidden from doing so. They faced serious consequences, yes. And if they choose to participate, they understand the risks. But the AMA itself cannot bar a physician from an execution. I’m sure state licensing boards would have an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/115 "2015-07-03T16:35:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’m sure state licensing boards would have an opinion. Good point, because that was what **Qadgop the Mercotan** was referring to, not the AMA. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/116 "2015-07-03T17:13:31Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Execution by plastic explosive. > > Wrap a 5 pound mass of C4 around a football helmet, in 5 separately fused & wired sections. Hook it all to 5 differnt power sources, each capable of detonating all 5 blocks. > > One switch. > > Instant, utterly painless, & completely certain. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > We could debate cruel, but it is certainly _unusual_. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why? Americans _like_ football. Americans like _anything_ that can convert a man’s head into a fine, red, mist—_including_ Football. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/117 "2015-07-03T17:15:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Imagine the gingerly reluctance to go forward for readjustment when the fucker doesn’t go off. Multiply redundant charges, with separate power sources, make that unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/118 "2015-07-03T17:19:59Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > How long can you hold your breath? I’ll start counting now… (envisions the classic Lucy routine, with the old lady and the watch). > > Holding one’s breath and then suddenly taking in a lungful of painful gas at a much higher concentration than the starting levels produces a very dramatic effect, sure to make even strong prison wardens cry. > > Holding one’s breath in an increasingly inert atmosphere should have no effect on anyone who’s raised a child. Their first giant lungful a minute or so in will have no particular effect. In Missouri I was touring the old prison, and the guide (an ex assistant warden IRC) mentioned that they were told to hold their breath as soon as the gas dropped, and then inhale as deeply as possible when the executioner rapped on the window after the gas had reached a certain concentration. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/119 "2015-07-03T18:27:56Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > People blaming the anti-DP side are wrong. It’s the pro-DP side who are trying to pretty up executions so no one gets squeamish, in order to maintain public support. And coincidentally, making executions more painful, more expensive, and more difficult to perform correctly. Disagree. Hanging was used for centuries. Anti-DP people complained. The electric chair and gas chambers were devised to be more humane. Anti-DP people complained and challenged these methods in court, and asked why these states didn’t use lethal injection. Lethal injection was universally adopted. Anti-DP people tried (and succeeded) in drying up the drug supply. A new lethal injection protocol was adopted. Anti-DP people complain. It’s not our side tinkering with the methods. We would still use hanging and electric chairs if we could. Your side causes the methods to keep changing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932/120 "2015-07-03T19:44:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It’s not our side tinkering with the methods. We would still use hanging and electric chairs if we could. Your side causes the methods to keep changing. You think that will ever stop? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-executing-someone-painlessly-difficult/723932.md?page=7)