# Why is Feminism AWOL on Islam? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454 "2003-01-18T13:13:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/21 "2003-01-18T19:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > \*\*The “feminism” I am denigrating is what cjhoworth calls the “fringes”… \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Intellectual feminist theorists, who december is referring to (as opposed to rank-and-file NOW members) … \*\* You are reading me wrong in not seeing the distinctions that both December and I made between “feminist groups” and Foucault and Freinds. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/22 "2003-01-18T20:10:53Z")
**december** made that distinction _after_ I and others > [@](#): > > [found]the many exceptions to Hymowitz’s claim that we “…haven’t heard a peep” about certain misdeeds. . What are intellecutal feminist theorist are doing about Islam? Theorizing about it, I suppose. As I said before theorist don’t _do_ anything. However, what feminists are doing about abuses to women in Islamic (and other) countries is linked up there for all to see. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/23 "2003-01-18T20:50:21Z")
Another false question thread? Please. I seem to remember that the only people THAT cared about what was going on in Afghanistan before it became a (now-passed and forgotten) PR opportunity were feminist and human rights groups. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/24 "2003-01-18T21:03:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > **december** made that distinction _after_ I and others . Fair point. What I was originally getting to was your assertion that > [@](#): > > feminist groups do not fight against a religion which, when it comes to conservative Christianity, they most certainly do. Which (hastening to add) is fine, their right, ok with me, not something I object to, etc. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/25 "2003-01-18T21:06:00Z")
**december** - why do you quote long excerpts from articles that are patently false? You also should be well aware from dozens of posts on this board alone, as well as external sources, that the vast majority of muslims regard wahabi extremism as practised by the Taliban as perverted and abhorrent. You would also be aware with a minimum of research of the HUGE and ONGOING efforts made by muslim and non-muslim women (and men) to highlight and improve the plight of women in Afghanistan. Not heard of RAWA - [http://www.rawa.org](http://www.rawa.org) ? I live in the UAE, and I can tell you, were any woman beaten by her husband here she would kick the sorry crap out of him, and divorce him with a nice big settlement. I also find it irritating (though predictable) that you manage to overlook today’s Gulf News, carrying the story [\*\* Empowering women ‘vital for growth’\*\*](http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=74281) Out of interest, I did a search for that article in Gulf News. Here’s the FULL context of your quote (which confirms my speculation above): > [@](#): > > \*\*[http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/print.asp?ArticleID=46020](http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/print.asp?ArticleID=46020) > > The Dubai Court of Cassation has ruled that a husband has the right to beat his wife in order to discipline her - provided that the beating is not so severe as to damage her bones or deform her body. > > At the same time, it ruled that a wife may ask her husband for a divorce if he injures her, either by word or action. > > A married woman, who is the subject of such a case, has just been permitted by the court to divorce her husband. > > The court also ordered the man to pay a monthly maintenance of Dh2,000, besides the remaining amount of her dowry - Dh5,000. She has also been granted custody of their two sons.\*\* Sheds a bit of a different light on it, doesn’t it? Was there any point to your OP except an attempt to vilify Islam and feminists? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/26 "2003-01-18T21:35:39Z")
Nah, I don’t think he’s attempting to vilify Islam and feminists–he’s just here to toss out the thoughts of yet another conservative commentator and see if a Great Debate happens. Love those Conservatives, doncha dude? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/27 "2003-01-18T21:38:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > Was there any point to your OP except an attempt to vilify Islam and feminists? Mostly an attempt to vilify the feminists. That’s the intended point of the OP. ISTM that’s an acceptible debate topic in this forum. I appreciate your cites and information, **istara** , but you didn’t actually point out any statement in the OP that was false. I said the practices I criticized took place in “many Isalmic countries.” I am glad to know that “the vast majority of muslims regard wahabi extremism as practised by the Taliban as perverted and abhorrent.” (BTW do you have a cite?) But, that statement doesn’t contradict the OP. I am glad to know that RAWA is doing good work, but that doesn’t contradict the OP’s alleged lack of attention from US and European feminists. Getting away from my defensiveness, I deeply appreciate your information about Dubai, RAWA and the situation in the UAE. Posts like yours, with real knowledge, are what I love about this Board. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/28 "2003-01-18T21:57:46Z")
—Mostly an attempt to vilify the feminists. That’s the intended point of the OP. ISTM that’s an acceptible debate topic in this forum.— Ah, as long as you’re honest about what your agenda is. —I appreciate your cites and information, istara, but you didn’t actually point out any statement in the OP that was false.— It’s hard to pick out any one point from something so patently false throughout. The fact is, to hear ANYTHING about what’s going on in Afghanistan prior to 9/11 that isn’t simply intel on Osama you’d have to look to feminist and human rights orgs. I heard so much about that woman in Nigeria from various feminist orgs that I actually thought they were going overboard in focusing on this one case to exclusion of other cases. The one who you should asking a cite from is this collumnist (your standards don’t seem so high for HER): can she go through the action alerts of feminist orgs? College catelouges? Explain what should have been there but wasn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/29 "2003-01-18T22:09:35Z")
Ok **furt** , since you took the bait 🙂 > [@](#): > > Either you are one, or at the very least you have to work with them. Sure… and how does their presence equal = an “unfortunately held significant power” according to **december**? (Although, if you wish to say you don’t believe this, that’s cool too; I don’t want to put words in your mouth). One of my English profs is definitely a feminist, but she still was a good English teacher. She didn’t treat the men in her class with disrespect, nor make us read all feminist theory and feminist authors. I guess my point/question is that unless someone can really give me a clear cite on how feminism as the “nutty fad divorced from reality” has in any significant way altered the general student’s experience at college more than any other political/religious view held by a faculty member, I just don’t buy the “feminists, detrimentally, are in control” theory. Oh, also, **furt** , you said: > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t expect to hear Democrats complain about left-wingers, or Repubs about righ-wingers. Either you are one, or at the very least you have to work with them. I find that expectation of complacancy alarming. Why shouldn’t one speak up when one’s own team is doing something screwy? But maybe it’s just because I come from a state where a Republican I voted for left his party for that very reason, that I have a slightly different attitude about it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/30 "2003-01-18T22:20:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Maybe these wacky post-colonial feminists actually pay attention to what Muslim women think. > > For example, for many women, wearing a veil is considered a subversive and revolutionary act. They are no longer going to present themselves as sex objects for the males of their world to ogle and harrass. They are instead taking steps to show themselves as a serious and dedicated to a radical identity movement. … I don’t think it is my place to tell them what they do or do not like. \*\* Oh what a complete crock. If women **want** to wear a veil that’s great. What is the justification for having religious police that beat women with sticks if they find them without a veil? I don’t agree with the OP’s assertion that feminists have been silent about the oppression of women in Islamic countries, but I think that the left is curiously silent about it. The criticism should be of the countries, however, not the religion. Also, it is a bizzare idea that it is inappropriate to comment on the cultural norms of other countries. It was right to boycott companies that did business with South Africa, and it is right to criticize countries such as Sadia Arabia that oppress women. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/31 "2003-01-18T22:29:26Z")
Now that I’m on a roll… Saying that a particular religion is the reason that countries do stupid and evil things is wrong headed. People justify what they do in terms of their religion. Liberal Islamics cite the parts of the Koran that have to do with respecting women, conservative Islamics cite the parts that deal with killing the infidels. Liberal Christians talk about loving your neigbor and turning the other cheek, conservative Christians cite an eye-for-an-eye and hellfire and damnation. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/32 "2003-01-18T22:35:59Z")
To get it clear, the OP is asking why academicians involved in feminist theory don’t publish papers related to the condition of women in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Muslim world where women are being oppressed? Or is the OP asking why they are not working to improve the condition of women through activism? If it’s the former, I’d like cites please. If it’s the latter, let me defer to the other posters who have provided ample evidence that the condition of women in oppressive regimes is extremely high on the agenda of many activist groups and one can only wonder what role feminist theorists in tenured positions in US universities can play. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@Blue\_John](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_John)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/33 "2003-01-18T22:38:37Z")
I don’t see why Islamic human rights abuses are a feminist issue and I don’t see why these abuses have attracted so much publicity. The Taliban executed more men than women, for adultery and in total, the Taliban enforced a strict code of dress and appearance on both sexes, the Taliban never even though of forcibly recruiting women for their army, the Taliban had a nasty habit of killing off entire populations of men and the older boys, leaving the women alive. Femnist organidations would redeem themselves if they protested as much about these incidents as about non-fatal “oppression” of Afghan women. Being oppressed by the Taliban wasn’t a sex specific experience. [Men’s Health America - Selective Brutalisation of Afghan Men](http://www.ncfm.org/menshealthamerica/report1_selective_brutalization.htm) Feminists can never be correctly accused of not protesting enough, they protest too much about trivialities when there are far greater injustices in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/34 "2003-01-18T22:49:50Z")
\<\< takes back Benefit of Doubt she gave December and puts it back in its box \>\> ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/35 "2003-01-18T22:53:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > To get it clear, the OP is asking why academicians involved in feminist theory don’t publish papers related to the condition of women in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Muslim world where women are being oppressed? Or is the OP asking why they are not working to improve the condition of women through activism? The latter. > [@](#): > > If it’s the latter, let me defer to the other posters who have provided ample evidence that the condition of women in oppressive regimes is extremely high on the agenda of many activist groups I don’t agree. The cites from other posters have shown that these conditions are on the agendas to a greater degree than the OP indicated. I admit that the cite in the OP exaggerated. However, its point about a dearth of demonstrations, articles, petitions, and resolutions has not been contradicted. > [@](#): > > …and one can only wonder what role feminist theorists in tenured positions in US universities can play. That’s an excellent question. As I understand it, these feminist professors do often become actively involved in various causes. I would assume that they could be more actively involved in Muslim mis-treatment of women if they chose to. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/36 "2003-01-18T23:44:09Z")
—However, its point about a dearth of demonstrations, articles, petitions, and resolutions has not been contradicted.— Its point is silly: first of all, it gives no scope: how many of these should there be before it’ll make said collumnist happy? Or, since you have the admitted goal of “vilifying feminists,” presumably shared by this woman, how can we trust that either of you would be happy with ANYTHING? Wouldn’t you find some vile way to attack people’s characters with thinly veiled implications no matter what? I mean, who raised a stink about the problem of women in Kuwait in the aftermath of the Iraqi occupation? It wasn’t very patriotic (cough-cough: politically correct), since we’re not supposed to notice that in addition to forcing out one despot, we happily helped re-enshrined other despots that don’t allow women to vote, force them to cover up, don’t allow them to work at certain jobs, etc… but plenty of feminists complained then. If you had been posting on this board back then, would we have found another of these sorts of threads saying that feminists were apologists for the Iraqis? Would this woman have written an article condemning feminists for the same? Now, most U.S. feminists are concerned with issues having to do with domestic politics and Western culture, which is no surprise or sin. Islam’s treatment of women is not a big problem here, and so it gets less _domestic_ attention. But as for foriegn issues, plenty of U.S. feminists obvoiusly have spoken out against what’s done to women in countries around the world (indeed, since they aren’t as interested in the goal of “vilifying feminists” they don’t even focus purely on the conservative-bludgeon-of-the-week Islam, but the plight of women in MANY different oppresive cultures and political situations). I would say that the accusation here has to be a lot more than ancedotal: it’s her cite to supply. But even so, I’d say that her claims have already been pretty much refuted here. And her characterization of gender and post-colonial theory, however, is nothing than the worst kind reductive anti-intellectualism, putting vile words in people’s mouths just to score cheap points. It’s Ann Coulter done poorly: I thought you didn’t like that style of attack anymore? I don’t hold much truck with gender or port-colonialist theory, but I would never characterize their ideas so dishonestly, without including some serious qualification. In other words, yet ANOTHER thread which you begin with 1) a false question (which should have been IS feminism AWOL on Islam?) 2) quotes from a ridiculously inflamatory and nasty source that 3) egregiously misrepresents reality in an easy to demonstrate manner. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/37 "2003-01-19T02:27:19Z")
To quote Rush Limbaugh, “Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.” Nothing feminists would do will ever please conservatives. **December** Do you agree with Mr. Limbaugh’s assessment of feminism? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/38 "2003-01-19T04:16:50Z")
Re: What is Gender Feminism? As I understand it, gender feminism is the branch of feminism that sees relations between the sexes as a sort of class war, with men as the oppressive bourgeoisie and women as the long-suffering proletariat. They tend to see rape and other forms of violence against women as tools that men use to keep women in their place. It sounds extreme, I know, but the more I learn about Saudi Arabia and the Islamic approach to sexual relations, the more I understand what they’re saying. The more extreme “all sex is rape” brand of feminists tend to be gender feminists. They’re the ones who are usually going on about “the patriarchy.” The “equal pay for equal rights” and “women should be treated as the equal of men” crew are generally known as equity feminists. And I have to say, the article that the OP cited to start this thread is about the dumbest attack on feminism I have ever seen. Feminists were raising alarms about the treatment of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world LONG before anyone else was, and they’ve continued to do so, though some few have fallen for that cultural relativism line. Attacking feminism on the grounds that it neglects the plight of Muslim women is about the stupidest line one could possibly take. It’s like attacking Republicans for not caring about wealthy businessmen. It’s like attacking labor unions for not caring about workers. I mean, I have some serious issues with gender feminists, but “ignoring the plight of Muslim women” is about the LAST place I would go after them. It makes me wonder if ‘trickle down’ doesn’t really work, in the sense that George Bush’s stupidity is trickling down to all other conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/39 "2003-01-19T05:27:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icerigger \* > \*\*To quote Rush Limbaugh,"Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society." **December** > > Do you agree with Mr. Limbaugh’s assessment of feminism? \*\* I don’t know why feminism was established. I do know that many other disadvantaged groups were able to achieve equality in this country, without needing to establish Jewism, Irishism, Polishism, Hungarianism, Chinesism, Japanesism, etc. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454/40 "2003-01-19T05:38:18Z")
Jesus, **December** , that’s an incredibly lame response. Can’t you at least try to do a little better? A little? Better? Gah. You hoisted the “why are \ not doing \” flag. The assembled debaters reply that a) they’re are, and b) your definition sucks and is dishonest. Your reply: Why do \ call themselves that? Um. **You** called them that. And then call them dishonest for what you call them. Unfuckingbelievable. As far as Jewism, etc: give me a friggin break. Have you honestly never, ever heard of advocacy organizations for any minority group??!!? Your dishonesty is, well, just disheartening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-feminism-awol-on-islam/149454.md?page=3)