# Why is filing taxes in the US so bass-ackwards? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 3, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762 "2024-04-03T01:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/21 "2024-04-03T22:10:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But here is the point- do you want all that info available to anyone who could pretend to be you? There already is a shit-ton of my (and your) info available on the 'net. Thus far, it’s been kept from anybody who’s pretending to be me. AFAIK, anyway. One more database containing information about me isn’t going to cause me to lose any sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/22 "2024-04-03T22:22:28Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > People in some states can use the IRS Direct File tool this year - no software required. The requirement to use that tool is pretty stringent. It’s for pretty simple returns. Although I’m guessing it may be expanded in the future. [IRS Direct File pilot | Internal Revenue Service](https://www.irs.gov/about-irs/strategic-plan/irs-direct-file-pilot#income) ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/23 "2024-04-03T22:52:47Z")
All valid points. It’s a lot of money for a system that does the easy part of the taxes. They can’t do the hard stuff like capital gains and itemized deductions. Even easy stuff like the number of dependents is going to be wrong for some percentage of filings due to changes in families. Also what does the IRS actually know about your tax situation on Apr 15th? I’ve always assumed they do a fair bit of processing the rest of the year. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/24 "2024-04-03T23:57:40Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > To be fair, if you make more than a certain amount in gambling winnings,… In a licensed casino. Not in a game in gym at Public School 84 or the stock room behind McKlosky’s Bar, or the Biltmore Garage. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/25 "2024-04-04T00:01:41Z")
But, you do in a sewer… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/26 "2024-04-04T00:04:52Z")
Well, only if Big Julie and Sky Masterson can show up. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/27 "2024-04-04T00:08:32Z")
And things being how they are, the back of the police station is out. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/28 "2024-04-04T00:10:32Z")
The Master once spoke on this: > **[Why doesn’t the IRS just send us a tax bill?](https://www.straightdope.com/21344423/why-doesn-t-the-irs-just-send-us-a-tax-bill)** ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/29 "2024-04-04T19:12:32Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > The $1200 is only for slots - for poker tournaments it’s reportable if the winnings less the buy- in is over $5000 and for other card games , it’s required if the winnings minus the wager is both over $300 _and_ 300 times the wager. Pretty sure the IRS cares if I win $8000 on a $30 bet even if there is no W2 The limit is also $1500 for keno, assuming that’s still being played anywhere (and note that if it is video keno, the IRS considers it a “slot machine” and the limit is $1200), and $1200 for bingo. I have seen quite a few bingo games with a $1199 jackpot. Also, if you win $10,000 or more, it is reportable, but more for RICO purposes than for gambling ones. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/30 "2024-04-05T04:19:01Z")
Yeah, Keno is rarely a game you can spectator play anymore, but casino restaurants and bars often have cards you can fill out and observe the screen for updates. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/31 "2024-04-05T04:51:28Z")
> [@Briny\_Deep](#): > > The tax preparation industry lobbies hard to keep the code a nightmare, and Congress is more than happy to take their bribes. Do we need to look much further than that? > > [Inside TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans From Filing Their Taxes for Free — ProPublica](https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free) Yes. We need to look further than that article. Powerful special interests can be overcome occasionally with sufficient political will, but when they are combined with _ideological_ interests, it becomes much more difficult. Grover Norquist is mentioned in the Pro-Publica article, but Matt Yglassias at Slate in 2013 provided salient political details: > So why don’t we use this automatic tax filing everywhere? In part, lobbying. ProPublica’s Liz Day wrote in March about how much Intuit, the maker of TurboTax, [spends on blocking this kind of initiative](http://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-fought-free-simple-tax-filing). But lobbying alone rarely explains anything. Intuit [fought against ReadyReturn in California](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/21/opinion/la-oe-ventry-intuit-20100721) but hasn’t prevailed. The difference between California and the U.S. Congress is that California is much more liberal. Conservative activists like [Grover Norquist have gone all-in to keep the federal tax process annoying](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/grover-norquist/grover-norquist-taxes_b_3005698.html). You can see the logic: If you think taxes are bad, then paying taxes _should_ be annoying to maintain the viability of anti-tax politics. … What we have is a dark coalition between the tax preparation industry and anti-tax conservatives. One or the other could have been beaten. But as a team they have been incredibly successful in burdening American families, keeping parents away from their children as they grind away on their tax returns. A resounding victory by Norquist, one of modern conservatism’s leading lights. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/32 "2024-04-05T15:34:52Z")
You (and Yglasias) are really onto something there. If paying taxes were easy, checking over a form and dropping it into the mail, I might actually feel a little glow of having done my civic duty. Instead the pain on my bank account is compounded by the pain of the forms themselves (and fear of screwing them up) which makes me more resentful of the entire process and every dime the IRS takes from me. And I’m a liberal. Imagine the rage of the millions who believe we shouldn’t have to pay any taxes at all. There’s always the Screwtapian aspect to consider as well (seriously or not). Some people in power like to inflict pain through paperwork, because they can. I’ve worked in government; I know. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/33 "2024-04-05T16:32:52Z")
Grover Norquist, author of the no new taxes pledge, definitely wants tax preparation to be as painful as possible. Yglasias questioned his political strategy: > But think harder and this looks nuts. Nobody _likes_ filing their taxes, but you can think of lots of arbitrary ways to make it harder. We could ban tax-prep software. We could demand that the money be paid by shipping boxes full of nickels. The forms could be written in Chinese. But why do that? I disagree with Yglasias here: politics is fought over changes and _stopping_ something is easier than putting in new programs, for the simple reason that new IRS requirements get public attention, while keeping things the same does not. Ok, ok, there are other big reasons too, related to checks and balances. > There’s always the Screwtapian aspect to consider as well (seriously or not). Some people in power like to inflict pain through paperwork, because they can. Honestly, I don’t see that coming from the IRS: I see an agency that’s [overworked and under-resourced](https://jabberwocking.com/raw-data-the-cost-of-an-irs-audit/). There _was_ a level of complexity added to tax forms some years back - I’m thinking of Schedules 1,2,3 etc. But that was a gimmick foisted on the IRS by Paul Ryan. He wanted the 1040 to be postcard sized without going through the bother of actually streamlining the tax system. So the IRS shuttled things to another layer of forms. Irritating to me, but the inconvenience is blunted by computer tax prep software. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/34 "2024-04-05T16:51:45Z")
Norquist is convinced that the big bad IRS shouldn’t prepare anybody’s taxes, because they’ll get every dime they possibly can. What he doesn’t realize, of course, is that the vast majority of filers (in my experience) have extremely simple returns, with a couple of income streams, some interest and dividends, and no itemized deductions. If that information was housed in a database as described above, every one of these folks could file their own taxes with a minimum of effort. And that would lessen the chances of error. To my point: last night, as we are winding down the tax filing season, our volunteer group was absolutely swamped. The five of us processed about 30 clients and submitted their returns. Two of those returns were rejected, both because of data input errors that were missed by both the reviewer (me) and the client themself. So this morning I spent close to an hour tracking down the clients, correcting the errors, and retransmitting the returns. The returns were then both accepted by the IRS, but this situation could have been avoided with more automation. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/35 "2024-04-06T01:37:34Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Norquist is convinced that the big bad IRS shouldn’t prepare anybody’s taxes, because they’ll get every dime they possibly can. What he doesn’t realize, of course, is that the vast majority of filers (in my experience) have extremely simple returns, with a couple of income streams, some interest and dividends, and no itemized deductions. If that information was housed in a database as described above, every one of these folks could file their own taxes with a minimum of effort. And that would lessen the chances of error I have prepared my own tax returns all my life, except for once a few years ago when I tried using one of the online filing services and decided it was actually easier to do it myself. On a few occasions I’ve made minor errors, most of which actually resulted in my being due a slightly higher refund than I expected. If the IRS were interested in screwing me out of some of my money, they could have said nothing and I probably would never have realized it. In fact, one of these errors would have resulted in me continuing to think I owed higher taxes the following years. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/36 "2024-05-31T04:09:29Z")
> **[IRS makes free tax return program permanent and is asking all states to join...](https://apnews.com/article/treasury-income-taxes-irs-audits-direct-file-04c3b4b55ca0d37b2c40697a392c78aa)** > > The IRS will make permanent the free electronic tax return filing system that it experimented with this year. ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/37 "2024-05-31T17:45:02Z")
From what I’ve read, it’s only going to be for simple returns, i.e. single w-2; that’s the catch for some “free” tax preparers ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/38 "2024-05-31T17:53:49Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > single w-2 Not sure that’s correct. I think you can have multiple w-2s, but the income streams are limited. I’m not 100% certain, however. From the [IRS website](https://directfile.irs.gov/income): > Direct File only works if you have certain types of income. > > You can use Direct File if you have one or more of these types of income for tax year 2023: > > Income from an employer > (Form W-2) > Unemployment compensation > (Form 1099-G) > Social Security benefits > (Form SSA-1099) > $1500 or less in interest income or US savings bonds or Treasury obligations > (Form 1099-INT, boxes 1 and 3) > You can’t use Direct File if you have other types of income for tax year 2023 that are not listed above. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/39 "2024-05-31T19:02:42Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > From what I’ve read, it’s only going to be for simple returns, i.e. single w-2; that’s the catch for some “free” tax preparers Well that’s true now, but from what I have read they are going to increase the complexity of the returns possible over the years. I think a bigger issue is that most states also have a state income tax and people want to prepare their federal and state returns at the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762/40 "2024-05-31T20:18:15Z")
Though filling out the state form may be simply a matter of copying data from the completed federal return. (I.e., “enter Line 1 from the IRS 1040 in Line 3 of the state return” and so forth.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-filing-taxes-in-the-us-so-bass-ackwards/999762.md?page=3)