# Why is "First Baptist" the biggest and fanciest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 6, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263 "2020-05-06T11:40:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/21 "2020-05-07T01:22:20Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > If someone here is better at working with Excel files than me, they might want to look at the following. I linked to a Mental Floss webpage in post #9. In that webpage, there’s the link below about church names in the U.S. It, in turn, links to an Excel file. This comes from a survey in 2010 of 95,000 U.S. churches, and the Excel file gives the 1,000 most common church names among those churches, including the number of churches with each of those names. Among those names are many starting with First, some starting with Second, and one starting with Third. If you’re better at using Excel files than I am, you might be able to put together in a smaller list just the names starting with First, Second, and Third and the number of churches with each of those names so that we can look at it before making any big claims about which denominations have many churches with number names: > > [Church Names in the U.S. « OpenBible.info Blog](http://www.openbible.info/blog/2010/06/church-names-in-the-u-s/) The single most common church name is “First Baptist Church,” followed by “St. John,” and “St. Paul.” But there are a lot of First Baptist churches because there are a lot of Baptist churches, period. When it comes to _percentage_ of Firsts, Baptists are positively modest compared to Presbyterians. > [@](#): > > Here are the most-common two-word phrases (including denomination names) used in some of the more popular denominations. “First” appears in 12% of Baptist church names, 10% of Methodist church names, only 3% of Lutheran church names, and fully 21% of Presbyterian church names. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/22 "2020-05-07T01:30:42Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I think that, as a rule of thumb, a denomination is more likely to have numbers in the names for its churches the more that it is a low-church denomination as opposed to being a high-church denomination. The spectrum from high church to low church is approximately Catholic-Eastern Orthodox-Episcopal-Congregationalist-Presbyterian-Lutheran-Methodist-Baptist. Going the other way, a denomination is more likely to have saints in the names for its churches the more that it is a high-church denomination as opposed to being a low-church denomination: > > [Low church - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_church) > > [High church - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_church) It seems to me that the terms “high church” and (especially) “low church” are not very relevant outside Anglicanism. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/23 "2020-05-07T04:28:40Z")
I grew up in Texarkana, in the largest Baptist church on the Arkansas side of town, Beech Street Baptist Church (Mike Huckabee was pastor for a few years in the 1980s). First Baptist [of Texarkana] was on the Texas side. In the 1970s, Beech Street church leaders decided to rename it Beech Street First Baptist. Their reasoning was that a Baptist newcomer to town, seeking a church that was likely to have good preaching/music/fellowship, would indeed start by visiting the “First Baptist” church. Indeed, when I went off to college, that’s how I chose to (most frequently) attend services at the First Baptist Church of that city. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/24 "2020-05-07T04:47:16Z")
My community has the First Presbyterian Church and the Second Presbyterian Church practically across the street from each other. I had assumed until now that they were from separate denominations, but they’re both Presbyterian Church (USA). According to #2’s website, it split from #1 in 1836 because its minister told a grieving mother that her child had been eternally damned as it had not yet been baptized. I guess they’re still mad. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/25 "2020-05-07T04:58:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And of course, some denominations _don’t_ use number names. Catholics, for instance, are well-represented (even if not the most numerous) pretty much everywhere, but almost no Catholic churches are called “First Catholic” (I’ve never heard of one, certainly, though I suppose there might be one somewhere): Catholic churches are usually named after a saint, or occasionally after a more abstract concept like “Resurrection”, “Transfiguration”, or “Holy Rosary”. Number-names are also uncommon for Episcopalians and Lutherans, two other fairly common denominations. I’m 99.9% sure that there’s no “First Catholic” church that’s Roman Catholic. In 50+ years that include living in 5 majority Catholic countries and doing a number of volunteer gigs that involve getting in touch with Catholic churches, I’ve never heard of one. Church naming tends to follow tradition, and the oldest churches in Rome are named for saints–St. Peter’s, Santa Maria Maggiore. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/26 "2020-05-07T05:07:36Z")
Missed the edit window to add, I just looked at the list of churches in the Catholic Archdioceses of New York and Los Angeles, the 2 biggest dioceses, and there’s no church there called anything that’s not a saint’s name or an event in the life of Jesus (like Epiphany) or a concept (like Holy Trinity). ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/27 "2020-05-07T08:01:45Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > I’m 99.9% sure that there’s no “First Catholic” church that’s Roman Catholic. In 50+ years that include living in 5 majority Catholic countries and doing a number of volunteer gigs that involve getting in touch with Catholic churches, I’ve never heard of one. > Church naming tends to follow tradition, and the oldest churches in Rome are named for saints–St. Peter’s, Santa Maria Maggiore. Similarly in the UK, and IME most of the European countries I have visited. The only numbering I’m aware of in the UK are the Christian Scientists (presumably for the reason mentioned upthread). Churches in the various nonconformist/dissenting traditions (i.e., not CofE or Roman Catholic or Church of Scotland) don’t usually hold with special veneration for saints and such and will just call themselves Anytown Methodist. But some independent congregations, and particularly newer, often Pentecostalist or largely African, ones, may have all sorts of names. I know of one called the Possibility Assembly. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/28 "2020-05-07T12:33:59Z")
“The First Catholic Church of Anytown” would in fact be a violation of the Official Rules for Picking the Name of A Church. From [an official website of the Catholic Church in England and Wales](http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/) you can obtain [a PDF file of the _Rite of Dedication of a Church and an Altar_](https://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/Rites/RDCA.pdf); according to “Chapter Two (Dedication of a Church)”, “II. Titular of a Church and the Relics of the Saints to be Placed in it” > [@](#): > > Every church to be dedicated must a have a titular. This may be: the Blessed Trinity; our Lord Jesus Christ invoked according to a mystery of his life or a title already accepted in the liturgy; the Holy Spirit; the Blessed Virgin Mary, likewise invoked according to some appellation already accepted in the liturgy; one of the angels; or, finally, a saint inscribed in the Roman Martyrology or in a duly approved Appendix. A blessed may not be the titular without an indult of the Apostolic See. A church should have one titular only, unless it is a question of saints who are listed together in the Calendar. But Baptists, of course, are a lot more loosey-goosey about these things. I doubt the Southern Baptist Convention (for example) even _has_ Official Rules for Picking the Name of A Church, and the SBC is far from the only group of “Baptists” out there. If you play around with the [official church-finder of the Southern Baptist Convention](http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/)–or just Google–you get everything from “First Baptist Church of [Name of Town]” and “[Street Name] Baptist Church”; to more abstract names like “Faith Baptist Church” or “Fellowship Baptist Church”; or “[Ethnic or National Group] Baptist Church”; or even [Ethnic or National Group] Fellowship Baptist Church". You can also find names like “St. Paul Baptist Church” which sound just like a Catholic Church (well, except for the “Baptist” part). These days, some of them don’t even have the word “Baptist” in there–something like “Soul Harvest Community Church” may actually be a Baptist church (Southern Baptist Convention) instead of a “non-denominational” evangelical church like you might think. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/29 "2020-05-07T12:50:05Z")
Yeah, **gkster** , I was just hedging my bets because I don’t know the name of every Catholic church everywhere in the world. EDIT: And I didn’t know that the Church had official rules for names, but I’m not in the least surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/30 "2020-05-07T15:58:17Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > If someone here is better at working with Excel files than me, they might want to look at the following. I linked to a Mental Floss webpage in post #9. In that webpage, there’s the link below about church names in the U.S. It, in turn, links to an Excel file. This comes from a survey in 2010 of 95,000 U.S. churches, and the Excel file gives the 1,000 most common church names among those churches, including the number of churches with each of those names. Among those names are many starting with First, some starting with Second, and one starting with Third. If you’re better at using Excel files than I am, you might be able to put together in a smaller list just the names starting with First, Second, and Third and the number of churches with each of those names so that we can look at it before making any big claims about which denominations have many churches with number names: > > [Church Names in the U.S. « OpenBible.info Blog](http://www.openbible.info/blog/2010/06/church-names-in-the-u-s/) > **[Churches hosted at ImgBB](https://ibb.co/zQCf7y2)** > > Image Churches hosted in ImgBB 43 “First” Church names on the list, representing 15,563 _total churches_. 4 “Second” Church names on the list, representing 482 _total churches_. 1 “Third” Church name, representing 26 _total churches_. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/31 "2020-05-07T22:40:14Z")
Thanks, Bear\_Nenno. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/32 "2020-05-08T00:04:50Z")
Calling oneself “first” confers an advantage vs any rivals. For banks it was important, but with Churches it might also have been. You are the oldest and most conservative venue in the area. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/33 "2020-05-08T00:41:02Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > [Churches hosted at ImgBB — ImgBB](https://ibb.co/zQCf7y2) > > 43 “First” Church names on the list, representing 15,563 _total churches_. > 4 “Second” Church names on the list, representing 482 _total churches_. > 1 “Third” Church name, representing 26 _total churches_. There used to be a church just off the 5 between Mount Vernon and Seedro Wooley that called itself the “Fifth Baptist Church, Reformed.” My first thought was “You people can’t get along with _anybody_.” ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/34 "2020-05-08T04:36:58Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > My first thought was “You people can’t get along with _anybody_.” You should read up on [the dissensions and splits in the Church of Scotland](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Burgher) There’s an old joke about a Scottish shipwreck survivor picked up from a desert island. He prould shows his rescuers round the huts he’s built for himself, his bedroom, kitchen and so on and even his own wee kirk. “And what’s that one over there?” “Aye well, that’s the kirk I don’t go to” ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/35 "2020-05-08T04:42:40Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > My first thought was “You people can’t get along with _anybody_.” You should read up on [the dissensions and splits in the Church of Scotland](https://mintdill.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/old-light-and-new-light-auld-licht-and-new-licht-what-does-this-all-mean/) There’s an old joke about a Scottish shipwreck survivor picked up from a desert island. He proudly shows his rescuers round the huts he’s built for himself, his bedroom, kitchen and so on and even his own wee kirk: “And what’s that one over there?” “Aye well, that’s the kirk I don’t go to” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263/36 "2020-05-08T13:34:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But rationality must yield to reality. If there are, in fact, numerous towns with one Baptist Church called “First Baptist Church of X”, then clearly ecclesiastical nomenclature is not driven by the considerations that seem natural to me. I’m at a loss to know what is driving it, though. I would hazard a guess that, after seeing the pattern repeat enough, people would start anticipating the eventual establishment of another church. Having your church already be “First Baptist” means that you don’t have to rename, change the signs, the logo, the letterhead, the bulletins, word of mouth, etc. And I would also guess that, once the above becomes established, it would just be tradition taking over even in areas where a second Baptist church would seem unlikely. And, finally it could be that people think it sounds good, whether because they’ve heard of so many other “First Baptist” or “First [Denomination]” churches (aka the mere exposure effect) , or because of the prestige sound of “first” that others mentioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-first-baptist-the-biggest-and-fanciest/853263.md?page=1)