# Why is "Fratboy" such an insult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126 "2009-04-06T14:10:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/181 "2009-04-09T17:21:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Even back in the 80s my chapter house was expected to be dry. We kept a separate account for purchasing alcohol so that when we presented our books to the inspector from National they would not show any house alcohol purchases. This was all due to risk management issues at the national level, and tied into our insurance payments. I’m not talking about theoretically dry. I mean actually dry: even 21-year-old members residing in the houses aren’t allowed to keep alcohol in their rooms. You had an _account_ for buying alcohol? We couldn’t even do that- we just passed the hat before a party. > [@villa](#): > > Yeah, that’s always the case. It’s why every fraternity party I ever saw was clearly a paragon of responsible drinking. Those wise 22 year olds keeping everyone in check. Yes, because I didn’t mention the other possibility at all. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/182 "2009-04-09T17:26:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, because I didn’t mention the other possibility at all. :rolleyes: Sorry for not noticing you edited to add it while I was posting. The post I replied to said there was “_ **always** _ somebody older and wiser to say, ‘okay, he’s had enough’.” (emphasis added). And that is total bollocks. I never saw it. I am sure it happens in the perfect world of fraternity responsibility that outsiders are excluded from. But in the world of drunk dicks making it difficult for me to take my son to a football game, it wasn’t the universal presence you promise. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/183 "2009-04-09T18:01:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You had an _account_ for buying alcohol? We couldn’t even do that- we just passed the hat before a party. [douche voice]You DIDN’T have an account? What kind of fraternity are you? How did you afford to pay for standard loading pallets of Natty Light? [/douche voice] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/184 "2009-04-09T18:06:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Sorry for not noticing you edited to add it while I was posting. The post I replied to said there was “_ **always** _ somebody older and wiser to say, ‘okay, he’s had enough’.” (emphasis added). I didn’t go to other fraternities’ parties, although I did go to parties at other chapters of my own, so I can’t speak for other fraternities at other colleges. I think you referenced UVA or VA Tech, both of which are much older campuses, and therefore drunker. ISTM that the older a college is, the stronger the binge drinking culture. > [@](#): > > [douche voice]You DIDN’T have an account? What kind of fraternity are you? How did you afford to pay for standard loading pallets of Natty Light? > [/douche voice] Perhaps we were too drunk to fill out the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/185 "2009-04-09T18:38:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [douche voice]You DIDN’T have an account? What kind of fraternity are you? How did you afford to pay for standard loading pallets of Natty Light? > [/douche voice] Please - Meisterbrau in a keg was the cheap swill of choice for our formal events. The account meant that we only passed the hat once per term, instead of tracking guys down before every tapped keg on a Thursday night. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/186 "2009-04-10T17:53:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not so far as I can see. > > Let’s say I’m heard to exclaim loudly about how I can’t stand public schools, and when pressed for a reason, I explain that they use standardized testing, which I feel is foolish, educationally speaking. > > A rebuttal is offered, pointing out that the vast majority of private schools also use standardized testing. “Oh, well,” I reply, “I similarly dislike them, too.” > > But that doesn’t make sense – why single out public schools in the first place? Here’s a reason. You may not have been previously aware that private schools also utilized standardized testing. Upon becoming aware of this fact, you appropriately change your response to, “I dislike public _and_ private schools because the use standardized tests.” I think this is ultimately a faulty analogy, though. Several posters have already questioned the premise that this behavior is exhibited in equal proportions among fraternity and non-fraternity members. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/187 "2009-04-10T19:06:12Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Here’s a reason. You may not have been previously aware that private schools also utilized standardized testing. Upon becoming aware of this fact, you appropriately change your response to, “I dislike public _and_ private schools because the use standardized tests.” > > I think this is ultimately a faulty analogy, though. Several posters have already questioned the premise that this behavior is exhibited in equal proportions among fraternity and non-fraternity members. They may question _the premise that this behavior is exhibited in equal proportions among fraternity and non-fraternity members_ - but they should cite something other than, “I saw some douchebag fratboys last week.” \*Douchebaggery \*knows no boundaries of gender, income or group association. I can find examples among every group of humanity. Greek letters only made ID easier. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/188 "2009-04-10T19:18:29Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Here’s a reason. You may not have been previously aware that private schools also utilized standardized testing. Upon becoming aware of this fact, you appropriately change your response to, “I dislike public _and_ private schools because the use standardized tests.” > > I think this is ultimately a faulty analogy, though. Several posters have already questioned the premise that this behavior is exhibited in equal proportions among fraternity and non-fraternity members. I must have missed where those posters offered up any evidence for their questioning. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/189 "2009-04-10T19:38:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I must have missed where those posters offered up any evidence for their questioning. Remember how Google Scholar was mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/190 "2009-04-10T19:49:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I must have missed where those posters offered up any evidence for their questioning. I think your post is your cite > [@Bricker](#): > > [T]here’s certainly a well-deserved reputation for partying excess in the Greek system… Whether or not other people are jumping off a bridge too is irrelevant to the above claim. Have you offered up any evidence for your statement that all things are equal? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/191 "2009-04-10T19:56:54Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Whether or not other people are jumping off a bridge too is irrelevant to the above claim. Have you offered up any evidence for your statement that all things are equal? Since the thread revolves around an unproven premise- that “frat boys” are inherently more likely to be naughty boys, apparently- it would seem that the onus is on people who hold to that belief to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/192 "2009-04-10T19:59:10Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Remember how Google Scholar was mentioned? Yes. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Regarding your skepticism about “gratuitous assertions” about fraternity members cheating more than other students, spending five minutes on Google Scholar turns up research that seems to indicate that there is in fact evidence to suggest that this assertion is correct. (I’m not going to post links–if you’re curious, you can look it up yourself, which is what you should have been doing in the first place.) Hint: a cite is not “look it up yourself.” In fact, I responded to that quoted post rejecting the notion that I’m somehow responsible for providing cites for my opponents’ assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/193 "2009-04-10T20:00:56Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Have you offered up any evidence for your statement that all things are equal? No. But the burden of proof lies on those making the claim. You cannot, as an initial assumption, assume anything OTHER than all things are equal; that impermissibly shifts the burden. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/194 "2009-04-10T20:07:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …rejecting the notion that I’m somehow responsible for providing cites for my opponents’ assertions. :dubious: Now wait a minute. Didn’t you start this thread? Why aren’t you responsible for proving your own assertion first? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/195 "2009-04-10T20:20:22Z")
**Bricker** , I usually side with you when it come to GD discussions, but not this time. [The very first article in a Google Scholar search](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fraternities+cheating&hl=en&lr=) provides a citation that cheating is more rampant in fraternities than outside of them. One could object by saying, “But you didn’t actually cite the article! You just said that a five-minute search would support your claim!” That strikes me as a rather petty objection though, and certainly not something that is ultimately damaging to your opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/196 "2009-04-10T20:21:12Z")
> [@emmaliminal](#): > > :dubious: Now wait a minute. Didn’t you start this thread? Why aren’t you responsible for proving your own assertion first? Because my OP is not an assertion. It’s a question: is there evidence that supports this reputation? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/197 "2009-04-10T20:26:20Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > **Bricker** , I usually side with you when it come to GD discussions, but not this time. > > [The very first article in a Google Scholar search](http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fraternities+cheating&hl=en&lr=) provides a citation that cheating is more rampant in fraternities than outside of them. One could object by saying, “But you didn’t actually cite the article! You just said that a five-minute search would support your claim!” That strikes me as a rather petty objection though, and certainly not something that is ultimately damaging to your opponents. That link is not to the study; I have no way to understand how the study was conducted, other than it “Compares the self-reported cheating behaviors of fraternity and non-fraternity members and the relation between student cheating and the overall level of greek membership on campus.” It wasn’t (apparently) a peer-reviewed study and it also contains this second line in the abstract: “Fraternity and sorority members cheat more than non-members but cheating would not change dramatically if fraternities or sororities did not exist on campus.” Now, I could adopt your apparent approach and argue that this second line shows that it’s not correct to blame fraternities for cheating, but in reality I have no idea how to interpret that line or, indeed, the whole study. That link is useless. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/198 "2009-04-10T20:34:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because my OP is not an assertion. It’s a question: is there evidence that supports this reputation? Again, your post is my cite. > [@Bricker](#): > > [T]here’s \*\*certainly a well-deserved reputation \*\*for partying excess in the Greek system. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/199 "2009-04-10T20:39:24Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Again, your post is my cite. _sigh_ OK, good point. I can either withdraw the assertion, or I can accept it without requiring any particular proof – in other words, if this is a debate, I can concede that point. If anyone else wishes to challenge it, I will withdraw it as unproven. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126/200 "2009-04-11T04:19:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It wasn’t (apparently) a peer-reviewed study On what evidence do you base that assertion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-fratboy-such-an-insult/492126.md?page=11)