# Why is Gandalf considered a great wizard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279 "2009-02-10T21:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/41 "2009-02-11T02:40:26Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Mate, and I say this as a man who briefly enjoyed Everquest and EQ2, and played WoW for months, as well as DAoC, and is a pretty big nerd all around… > > that’s pathetic. Nooo…that’s self-mocking humor delivered with tongue firmly in cheek. As is the notion of casually tossing in one of my favorite characters in league with fictional characters of great reknown. I do that sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/42 "2009-02-11T02:50:43Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Nooo…that’s self-mocking humor delivered with tongue firmly in cheek. As is the notion of casually tossing in one of my favorite characters in league with fictional characters of great reknown. I do that sometimes. Ok, then you whooshed me. However, I have seen far too many fancic writers do exactly that, so forgive my apprehension. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/43 "2009-02-11T02:53:56Z")
There are 9 levels of magic in D&D, correct? 5th level out of 9 would be decent powered spells, nothing great? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/44 "2009-02-11T03:00:59Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > There are 9 levels of magic in D&D, correct? 5th level out of 9 would be decent powered spells, nothing great? It’s middling. The point is, though, that trying to evaluate Gandalf’s “level” with D&D stats is pointless. Gandalf is not a D&D mage. Neither is he an Everquest mage, nor a WoW mage, nor any other kind of game mage. There were exactly five wizards in Middle-Earth. They were not human. There is no comparison. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/45 "2009-02-11T03:01:57Z")
Yeah, but did any of them know Evard’s Black Tentacles? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/46 "2009-02-11T03:05:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The point is, though, that trying to evaluate Gandalf’s “level” with D&D stats is pointless. No more pointless than wondering and/or having lengthy threads about who Batman could beat (if he was prepared). The joy is in the journey. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/47 "2009-02-11T03:07:40Z")
5? Oh wait, forgot the Blue ones. Wasn’t Gandalf teaching someone, though? I dimly remember that. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/48 "2009-02-11T03:10:03Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s middling. The point is, though, that trying to evaluate Gandalf’s “level” with D&D stats is pointless. Gandalf is not a D&D mage. Neither is he an Everquest mage, nor a WoW mage, nor any other kind of game mage. There were exactly five wizards in Middle-Earth. They were not human. There is no comparison. What if we use MERP stats? What then mister smartypants? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/49 "2009-02-11T03:17:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There were exactly five wizards in Middle-Earth. Yabut there was also the Witch-King. And the Black Numenorean necromancers. And the Blue Wizards might have been responsible for founding schools of magic in the eastern lands! And what of Queen Beruthiel and her cats? And Radagast had a squirrel apprentice that he taught spells to, although that was a story that I wrote so maybe it doesn’t count. I go sit down now. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/50 "2009-02-11T03:24:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > [QUOTE=Pochacco] > > Yeah. It’s worth remembering that Galadriel, the most powerful elf in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring, the only living being to have seen the Trees … barely even rates a mention in the old sagas. She’s just somebody’s little sister. > > The Lord of the Rings is all about the corrupting influence of power. Saruman, Boromir, and Denethor all succumb to it. The greatest heroes are the ones who turn away from power when offered it, or who accept it only reluctantly: Bilbo, Frodo, Aragorn, Faramir. Gandalf’s mission is to inspire and guide the people of middle earth. Showing restraint while using power is part and parcel of that mission. While she was the most powerful Elf left in Middle Earth, she had grown over the millenium in power and craft and had an Elven Ring. However she was not the last Elf of the Light or Elf that saw the Two Trees. Glorfindel clearly was another and there was quite possible others in Rivendell and the Havens. Your second part is dead on. Let’s add Sam to those that resisted and Isildur to those that failed. [/QUOTE] And shouldn’t we add Galadriel herself? [QUOTE=Galadrial to Frodo] ‘I pass the test,’ Galadriel said. ‘I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.’ [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/51 "2009-02-11T03:26:14Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Seems like I almost remember an article in Dragon magazine or somewhere claiming Gandalf was about a 5th level magic user under AD&D rules. 5th level isn’t particularly powerful–1 3rd level spell, 2 second level spells, 3 first level spells not counting inteligence bonuses if any. I believe that article came out about 1978. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/52 "2009-02-11T03:43:08Z")
FWIW, D&D 3.5’s Epic Level Handbook specifically mentions Gandalf as an ‘epic’ character, ie lvl20+. That means he has access to custom super-powered spells that can be cast with no one the wiser. I have to agree with earlier posters, though, that Gandalf is so good, he doesn’t even _need_ to sling Fireballs around to get the job done. If I had to stretch the D&D analogy, Gandalf has crazy good skill modifiers and saves. (Except the Balrog’s natural 20 one on the bridge. I refuse to believe that Gandalf could fail a save.) ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/53 "2009-02-11T03:43:55Z")
For those who don’t know, Balrogs are Maiar also, like Gandalf and Sauron, corrupted by Morgoth. They had great power, and Aragorn or Legolas would’ve been toys. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/54 "2009-02-11T03:49:21Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Yeah, but did any of them know Evard’s Black Tentacles? In the Biblical sense? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/55 "2009-02-11T03:50:55Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Yabut there was also the Witch-King. And the Black Numenorean necromancers. And the Blue Wizards might have been responsible for founding schools of magic in the eastern lands! And what of Queen Beruthiel and her cats? And Radagast had a squirrel apprentice that he taught spells to, although that was a story that I wrote so maybe it doesn’t count. > > I go sit down now. Only 5 Wizards if we narrow it to the Istari, but plenty of other magic users of various sorts. Even Thranduil had some magic though his son did not seem to. As to Radagast, if we are being silly about this, then he trained **Glee** ’s character Ghân on this very board. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And shouldn’t we add Galadriel herself? Yes! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/56 "2009-02-11T03:59:12Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > In the Biblical sense? Yes. Remember, Gandalf only shows us a hentai of his full powers. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/57 "2009-02-11T03:59:15Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > The way I’ve heard it, and I can’t remember from where precisely, is that the best wizards never need their magic. They use wisdom and reputation to accomplish their goals, and a wizard is most fearsome when you don’t know exactly what he’s capable of. They don’t throw fireballs around, they _influence_ things. Gandalf had magic, but he rarely needed it, and only used it when it could be exploited to best and most dramatic effect. I see you are also an aficionado of Moon-Tse’s “The Art of Wizardry.” 🙂 =================== Dr. Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts, would have simply summoned up the Dread Dormammu and banished all RPG wizards to the Cavern of Torments. Which is to say, there aren’t any criteria for comparing the relative prowess of fictional magic users from universes with disparate “laws of magic.” Maybe there can’t be. In the real, non-magical world Gandalf stands out as the premier magic-user in the single work of fiction that all but singlehandedly resurrected epic fantasy from a specialty genre read by only a few dozen enthusiasts, to a culturally significant movement in popular literature – and an impact on the cultural awareness and motivation of its millions of readers. It would not be going overboard to say that Gandalf was an element in the ending of the Vietnam War – the shift from the 1950s-early 60s ‘fight communism’/progress ethos to the late 60s-70s antiwar/environmentalism ethos can be attributed in part to the popularity of Tolkien. Tolkien’s legacy is still a little close to accurately measure, but (as was discussed in another thread recently) I believe it’s safe to say that his writing stands head and shoulders above anything in the fantasy genre since in its influence on popular culture. Some years back I cleaned out my parents’ attic, and found my old Hula Hoop and my copy of “The Little Old Lady from Pasadena” album. I suspect that in 40 years or so, people will feel much the same about a Gygax DM handbook and WoW printouts from Blizzard as I did then. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/58 "2009-02-11T05:01:51Z")
> [@](#): > > And shouldn’t we add Galadriel herself? And Tom Bombadil. Don’t forget Tom. > **[Tom Bombadil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil)** > > Tom Bombadil is a character in J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium. He first appeared in print in a 1934 poem called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", which included The Lord of the Rings characters Goldberry (his wife), Old Man Willow (an evil tree in his forest) and the barrow-wight, from whom he rescues the hobbits. They were not then explicitly part of the older legends that became The Silmarillion, and are not mentioned in The Hobbit. > Bombadil is best known from his appearance as a supporting... > [@](#): > > Tom first appears within the story after Merry and Pippin are trapped by Old Man Willow and Frodo cries for help. Tom commands Old Man Willow to release them, singing him to sleep, and shelters the hobbits in his house for two nights. Here it is revealed that the One Ring has no power over Bombadil. Frodo wearing the Ring can be seen by him, and Tom wearing the Ring does not turn invisible. He even tosses the Ring in the air and makes it disappear, but then produces it from his other hand and returns it to Frodo. While this demonstrates he has unique and mysterious power over the Ring, the idea of giving him the Ring for safekeeping is rejected within Book Two’s second chapter, “The Council of Elrond.” Gandalf says, rather, that “the Ring has no power over him”, and believes that Tom would simply not find the Ring to be very important and so might simply misplace it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/59 "2009-02-11T05:11:21Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > For those who don’t know, Balrogs are Maiar also, like Gandalf and Sauron, corrupted by Morgoth. They had great power, and Aragorn or Legolas would’ve been toys. Speaking of, I’ve read somewhere that the Balrog of Khazad-Dum was Gothmog - lord high badassedness himself among the Balrogs. Is there any canonical support for this? ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/60 "2009-02-11T05:18:51Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Speaking of, I’ve read somewhere that the Balrog of Khazad-Dum was Gothmog - lord high badassedness himself among the Balrogs. > > Is there any canonical support for this? I’m pretty sure Gothmog fought one of the Noldor and they killed each other. I want to say it was Ecthelion, but I’ll have to check _The Silmarillion_. I don’t think the Moria Balrog was anyone special. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=4)