# Why is Gandalf considered a great wizard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279 "2009-02-10T21:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/61 "2009-02-11T05:20:59Z")
> [@MeDrewNotYou](#): > > I’m pretty sure Gothmog fought one of the Noldor and they killed each other. I want to say it was Ecthelion, but I’ll have to check _The Silmarillion_. I don’t think the Moria Balrog was anyone special. [Ecthelion it was](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gothmog.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/62 "2009-02-11T05:23:17Z")
Well, heck. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/63 "2009-02-11T05:26:45Z")
From _The Silmarillion- Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin_ > [@](#): > > …of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/64 "2009-02-11T05:28:21Z")
Arrrrrgh. Although I note that they gave the orc general in the movie (the dude with the puffy face who spit on the boulder hurled at him from Minas Tirith) the name “Gothmog”. Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/65 "2009-02-11T05:36:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Arrrrrgh. Although I note that they gave the orc general in the movie (the dude with the puffy face who spit on the boulder hurled at him from Minas Tirith) the name “Gothmog”. > > Yikes. There actually IS a “Gothmog” in the War of the Ring who acts as the lieutenant of Minas Morgul and leads a portion of the armies of Mordor in the Battle of Pellenor Fields (the siege of Minas Tirith). But Tolkien doesn’t really linger on him and doesn’t even specify his species. Jackson interpreted him as an orc, but that’s not canon. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/66 "2009-02-11T06:23:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There actually IS a “Gothmog” in the War of the Ring who acts as the lieutenant of Minas Morgul and leads a portion of the armies of Mordor in the Battle of Pellenor Fields (the siege of Minas Tirith). But Tolkien doesn’t really linger on him and doesn’t even specify his species. Jackson interpreted him as an orc, but that’s not canon. Oh, well double dammit. Time to re-read, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/67 "2009-02-11T07:04:55Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Yes. Remember, Gandalf only shows us a hentai of his full powers. You are so going to Hell for that. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/68 "2009-02-11T08:34:26Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Eh.. I just invented a wizard named Marmaduche who can disappear the universe by waving a finger, and is the most powerful Wizard in the history of all wizards by a factor of over a million. Now that this super wizard exists to compare to, why is this infamous Oakbrow Farwalker considered a great wizard? Second most powerful - Pun Pun doesn’t have to wave his finger. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/69 "2009-02-11T14:52:22Z")
“Word of Command” = Song of an Ainur made manifest. Pretty fundamental stuff, not seen much since the creation of the world itself. Luthien used it against Sauron when they battled over Beren. Basically they are changing fundamental reality via the same act of creation which turned Ainulindale into Arda. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/70 "2009-02-11T14:58:10Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > “Word of Command” = Song of an Ainur made manifest. Pretty fundamental stuff, not seen much since the creation of the world itself. Luthien used it against Sauron when they battled over Beren. Basically they are changing fundamental reality via the same act of creation which turned Ainulindale into Arda. That makes sense. Where did you find that nugget? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/71 "2009-02-11T15:26:58Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > “Word of Command” = Song of an Ainur made manifest. Pretty fundamental stuff, not seen much since the creation of the world itself. Luthien used it against Sauron when they battled over Beren. Basically they are **changing fundamental reality** via the same act of creation which turned Ainulindale into Arda. So, a Wish spell, then? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/72 "2009-02-11T15:29:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, a Wish spell, then? 😉 _Miracle_, by 3.X rules. Gets his power from a deity he does. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/73 "2009-02-11T15:41:58Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > “Word of Command” = Song of an Ainur made manifest. Pretty fundamental stuff, not seen much since the creation of the world itself. Luthien used it against Sauron when they battled over Beren. Basically they are changing fundamental reality via the same act of creation which turned Ainulindale into Arda. Truly I sit at the feet of greatness. :eek: I hope this shows the OP that Gandalf is to D and D wizards as God is to Jim Anderson.\* There can be no comparison, because there are no true similarities. But I have a question: if Gandalf knows the words of Command, why doesn’t the Balrog know them as well and use them as a counter measure? \*of Father Knows Best. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/74 "2009-02-11T15:49:42Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Truly I sit at the feet of greatness. :eek: > > I hope this shows the OP that Gandalf is to D and D wizards as God is to Jim Anderson.\* There can be no comparison, because there are no true similarities. But I have a question: if Gandalf knows the words of Command, why doesn’t the Balrog know them as well and use them as a counter measure? Maiar aren’t cookie-cutter clones. They’re all pretty much individuals and have differing levels of power and knowledge. The balrogs were all more or less shoehorned into the same basic fiery mortal shell, but they were as much individuals as Gandalf and Saruman. In that vein, knowing the Words of Command isn’t so much a “standard” maia power, but rather something that Gandalf, as Olórin, learned in the West (possibly from Manwë or Varda, whom he served especially) before coming to Middle-Earth. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/75 "2009-02-11T15:51:14Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Truly I sit at the feet of greatness. :eek: > > I hope this shows the OP that Gandalf is to D and D wizards as God is to Jim Anderson.\* There can be no comparison, because there are no true similarities. But I have a question: if Gandalf knows the words of Command, why doesn’t the Balrog know them as well and use them as a counter measure? Perhaps as simple as one was on a “Mission from God” (in service to Erü) and the other rebeled against Erü and the Valar long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/76 "2009-02-11T15:53:57Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I hope this shows the OP that Gandalf is to D and D wizards as God is to Jim Anderson.\* Well, when Betty broke up with her boyfriend, who did she turn to? It certainly wasn’t God. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/77 "2009-02-11T16:05:09Z")
Well, I have a couple of theories: A) It’s not really as simple as “knowing a word”; There’s a certain intrinsic power required. Balrogs might have had that power once, but they’ve been corrupted and essentially “fallen” for a good long time and the fundamental nature of their power is changed. Gandalf gets words of command, Balrogs get to be really tall and on fire. B) There’s not much time to react when the fundamental fabric of reality alters around you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/78 "2009-02-11T16:06:23Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I hope this shows the OP that Gandalf is to D and D wizards as God is to Jim Anderson Hmm, perhaps not the best analogy. Let’s see… Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : Some garage band Gandalf : DnD Wizard::Johnny Chan : My niece, who can’t remember if 3 of a kind beats 2 pair Gandalf : DnD Wizard::Tiger Woods : Me ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/79 "2009-02-11T16:09:00Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Hmm, perhaps not the best analogy. Let’s see… > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : Some garage band Better: Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : a 7-year-old playing the wood block in 1st grade music appreciation time ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/80 "2009-02-11T16:19:43Z")
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