# Why is Gandalf considered a great wizard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279 "2009-02-10T21:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/81 "2009-02-11T16:43:15Z")
If I was a DM running a high level group, and if during the epic facedown between the PC party and my uberbaddest monster encounter, the 20th level Wizard in the party said, “No, I don’t think I’m going to cast ‘wish’ or ‘time stop’ or ‘sphere of annihilation’. I’m going to talk first. The rest of the party can go, I’ll take care of it.” And then that PC left the battle victorious and rejoined the party back at the local inn, dressed in cool new flashy white robes, well, I’d hand that player my DM screen right then and there and bow down to his awesomeness. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/82 "2009-02-11T16:55:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Better: > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : a 7-year-old playing the wood block in 1st grade music appreciation time Whatever. Anwar, my level 22 Sha’ir would probably have just wished Gandalf out of existence or stolen his body. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/83 "2009-02-11T16:56:40Z")
In the first Age, the full magical might of the Valar host was unleashed against the Fortress of Angband, and practically sundered the continent. It’s possible that the Valar (and Gandalf) do not wish to bring forth such terrible power again. Real world parralel: Atom bomb. A weapon used in anger, so powerfull we hope to never use it again, and indeed, the superpowers intentionally limit themselves to “alliance building”, economic competition, and third party proxies, as opposed to direct confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/84 "2009-02-11T16:59:07Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Whatever. Anwar, my level 22 Sha’ir would probably have just wished Gandalf out of existence or stolen his body. Sha’ir? Did you have to chisel your stats into a stone block when you made the character or did they have paper back then? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/85 "2009-02-11T17:09:38Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > And Tom Bombadil. Don’t forget Tom. > > [Tom Bombadil - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil) [tangent] I’ve read _The Hobbit_ and the Ring trilogy, but nothing else in the Tolkein canon. What should I read to learn more about Tom Bombadil? He’s always been a mysterious character to me, a being in some ways outside of the world of the trilogy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/86 "2009-02-11T17:14:47Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > [tangent] > > I’ve read _The Hobbit_ and the Ring trilogy, but nothing else in the Tolkein canon. What should I read to learn more about Tom Bombadil? He’s always been a mysterious character to me, a being in some ways outside of the world of the trilogy. You’ve already largely read everything we really know about Bombadil. Tolkien was fairly coy about him, even in the Letters. We do know that he was more or less outside the power structure of Arda, although he may have been plugged into it previously (possibly a maia “gone native”). He appears to be completely content to just exist in his little corner of the world. He is sort of a _Hobbit_-ish add-on, though, deriving from a doll that Tolkien’s children had and inserted into the earlier, more storyteller-type mood of the beginning of _Fellowship_. Ol’ Tim Benzedrine, on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/87 "2009-02-11T17:22:24Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > [tangent] > > I’ve read _The Hobbit_ and the Ring trilogy, but nothing else in the Tolkein canon. What should I read to learn more about Tom Bombadil? He’s always been a mysterious character to me, a being in some ways outside of the world of the trilogy. Actually you have summed him up perfectly. In one of Tolkien’s letters (144) he talked about how Tom was an enigma. Not everything was known and he was different. The conjecture about who Tom was beyond a children’s toy is hopeless and Tolkien himself did not know. You could pick up the \*Adventures of Tom Bombadil \*for a little bit more about him though. It has two poems on Tom and maybe 10 other poems. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/88 "2009-02-11T17:28:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Sha’ir? Did you have to chisel your stats into a stone block when you made the character or did they have paper back then? I still have the papyrus leaf on which I kept his stats. He was quite the badass, if I do say so myself. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/89 "2009-02-11T17:40:38Z")
The Gandalf of the “The Hobbit” seemed to be a far weaker entity than the “Lord of the Rings” Gandalf. When cornered by wolves and orcs, he was pretty much reduced to throwing flaming pine cones and was, I recall, about to fling himself down and take as many with him as possible in a big fireball when the Eagles showed up. So there’s a bit of retconning done by Tolkien between the two books. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/90 "2009-02-11T17:40:51Z")
I thought that he was supposed to be an Angel in the book. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/91 "2009-02-11T17:48:23Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I thought that he was supposed to be an Angel in the book. More or less. He’s a maia, which are of the same nature as the Valar (the big good guys), but of lesser stature. All of the Wizards are maiar, kind of “encased” in a mortal body and with their powers limited. They were sent to Middle-Earth to rally and aid the mortal races against Sauron, but had their powers “dialed back” because (at least in part) the Valar didn’t want a reiteration of the Drowning of Beleriand (caused by the full force of the Valar against Melkor) on their hands. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/92 "2009-02-11T18:02:11Z")
Tom Bombadil is the only character in story who knows he’s a fictional character. Thus, he transcends the story itself. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/93 "2009-02-11T18:12:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Whatever. Anwar, my level 22 Sha’ir would probably have just wished Gandalf out of existence or stolen his body. Pfft. Gandalf would have smoked his ass like it ain’t no thing. I refer you to the passage in Book III, chapter XII, in which Gandalf says “Anwar, I’ll smoke your ass like it ain’t no thing.” ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/94 "2009-02-11T18:26:06Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > There are 9 levels of magic in D&D, correct? 5th level out of 9 would be decent powered spells, nothing great? Actually, it’s a little more complicated. The Theory bwas that Gandalf was a 5th _level_ Wizard. Your spellcasting as a Wizard has a maximum SPELL LEVEL (not class level) of 1/2 your level, rounded up. Gandalf, as a fifth-level Wizard, was capable of casting 3rd level spells according to that analysis. That’s actually better than it sounds. There’s vastly more difference between 1st level and 3rd level spells than between 3rd level and 9th level spells. The reason is that third level spells were originally the way upper tier stuff that you probably would never get. (They didn’t realize people were actually going to play the game, apparently.) Anyway, they glommed on more spell levels after that, but apart from a few tricks like teleportation, spells past 3rd are rarely better than thse 3rd level stuff. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/95 "2009-02-11T18:41:25Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Hmm, perhaps not the best analogy. Let’s see… > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : Some garage band > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::Johnny Chan : My niece, who can’t remember if 3 of a kind beats 2 pair > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::Tiger Woods : Me I stand by my analogy. Are you saying you consider Jim Anderson to be in any way resembling god? Kitten and Princess and Bud would disagree… And this made me laugh out loud: [QUOTE=tdn] Pfft. Gandalf would have smoked his ass like it ain’t no thing. I refer you to the passage in Book III, chapter XII, in which Gandalf says “Anwar, I’ll smoke your ass like it ain’t no thing.” [/QUOTE] I believe that is canon, gentlemen. 😉 There is something very Zen about Gandalf, IMO. He is not less able in The Hobbit, I believe he is distracted by other issues of the day. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/96 "2009-02-11T18:42:30Z")
Actually, another small point: The Word of Power Gandalf uses may have been a spell or one of his innate abilities; we don’t really know. He was probably trying to ward the door, thugh, not smash the whole place up. And he wasn’t entirely sure, IIRC, that the Balrog was on the other side of it were some powerful orc sorcerer or something. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/97 "2009-02-11T18:45:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, another small point: > > The Word of Power Gandalf uses may have been a spell or one of his innate abilities; we don’t really know. He was probably trying to ward the door, thugh, not smash the whole place up. And he wasn’t entirely sure, IIRC, that the Balrog was on the other side of it were some powerful orc sorcerer or something. At that point he did not know it was a Balrog. He just knew it was something unexpectantly powerful. I posted this earlier in the thread: [QUOTE=LotR] 'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/98 "2009-02-11T18:47:19Z")
Years ago I was GMing MERP using ICE’s Rolemaster as the system. We routinely had wizards of 3rd or 4th level who could smoke Gandalf’s ass like it ain’t no thing. Not a one of them would be trapped at the top of a tower. I think that Levitate was a 2nd level spell, and Fly was maybe 4th or 5th level. And they didn’t need magic rings to turn invisible. Those are a couple of the many reasons I eventually switched over to Harn. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/99 "2009-02-11T19:17:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Ol’ Tim Benzedrine, on the other hand… Hash! Boo! Valvoline! Clean, clean, clean for Gene! RR ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/100 "2009-02-11T19:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > is that the best wizards never need their magic. They use wisdom and reputation to accomplish their goals, and a wizard is most fearsome when you don’t know exactly what he’s capable of So Magic is alot like Kung Fu. If you fight them, grasshopper, you have already lost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=6)