# Why is Gandalf considered a great wizard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279 "2009-02-10T21:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Belrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@Belrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belrix)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/101 "2009-02-11T19:40:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Some years back I cleaned out my parents’ attic, and found my old Hula Hoop and my copy of “The Little Old Lady from Pasadena” album. I suspect that in 40 years or so, people will feel much the same about a Gygax DM handbook and WoW printouts from Blizzard as I did then. Dang! I just listed my old first edition books on eBay. Now you’re making me second-guess that action… ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/102 "2009-02-11T19:51:04Z")
In the chapter of LotR on Lothlorien, Tolkien makes a point about his conception of magic. Sam observes that Lothlorien is the most magical place one could imagine, but that the magic is “right down deep where you can’t see it, if you take my meaning” (or words to that effect). In Middle-Earth, the real magic is behind the scenes. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/103 "2009-02-11T20:38:17Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > In the chapter of LotR on Lothlorien, Tolkien makes a point about his conception of magic. Sam observes that Lothlorien is the most magical place one could imagine, but that the magic is “right down deep where you can’t see it, if you take my meaning” (or words to that effect). In Middle-Earth, the real magic is behind the scenes. If you do things right, they never know you did anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/104 "2009-02-11T20:47:09Z")
There’s a lot of subtle, veiled magic in the Tolkien universe. Take Legolas running on top of the snow while the hobbits sink in it. He’s not really that lightweight, and there must be magic involved or he’d have no traction and he’d slide down the mountain. Galadrial’s mirror, swords that glow around orcs, the Palantir, these are all artifacts. But the most influential players in the story (Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf…) tend to accomplish their goals without turning someone into a newt. > [@tdn](#): > > Hmm, perhaps not the best analogy. Let’s see… > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard::The New York Philharmonic : Some garage band I think it’s more like… Gandalf : DnD Wizard :: Dog : Dogwood tree They just don’t compare. It’s like a _Twilight_ vampire vs. an Ann Rice vampire, a _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ vampire, Dracula, or a Tanya Huff vampire. They ain’t the same thing. > [@tdn](#): > > Pfft. Gandalf would have smoked his ass like it ain’t no thing. > > I refer you to the passage in Book III, chapter XII, in which Gandalf says “Anwar, I’ll smoke your ass like it ain’t no thing.” Nicely done. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/105 "2009-02-11T21:06:55Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > In Middle-Earth, the real magic is behind the scenes. Yes – exactly as we should expect from a devout Catholic like Tolkien. Take all the answers a Christian would give to why Jesus just didn’t heal everyone, wax all the romans, and bring about heaven on earth, and I suspect it will sound quite a bit like a description of why Gandalf was the way he was. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/106 "2009-02-11T21:12:15Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > There’s a lot of subtle, veiled magic in the Tolkien universe. Take Legolas running on top of the snow while the hobbits sink in it. He’s not really that lightweight, and there must be magic involved or he’d have no traction and he’d slide down the mountain. Galadrial’s mirror, swords that glow around orcs, the Palantir, these are all artifacts. But the most influential players in the story (Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf…) tend to accomplish their goals without turning someone into a newt. Though of course Frodo did suggest that Sam would be turned into a spotted toad if he told anyone about what he heard from outside the window. A bit later Gandalf actually said (jokingly) “And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.” ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/107 "2009-02-11T21:32:42Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Though of course Frodo did suggest that Sam would be turned into a spotted toad if he told anyone about what he heard from outside the window. A bit later Gandalf actually said (jokingly) “And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.” I believe that quote should have “like it ain’t no thing” attached to end of it… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/108 "2009-02-11T22:28:00Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Gandalf : DnD Wizard :: Dog : Dogwood tree Yeah! Dogwood trees look pretty, but dogs get to pee all over - > [@](#): > > They just don’t compare. It’s like a _Twilight_ vampire vs. an Ann Rice vampire, a _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ vampire, Dracula, or a Tanya Huff vampire. They ain’t the same thing. Oh. Uh, I must not have interpreted that properly. Neverwind! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/109 "2009-02-12T05:22:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think that Aragorn or Legolas could have defeated the Balrog but died in the effort. Neither was any slouch, but powerful lords of their people, akin to Glorfindel in the First Age who defeated a Balrog and fell to his death in the process. I doubt it. My impression is that the greatest warriors of any age were pretty much crap compared to the greatest warriors of earlier ages. Also, Gimli matched (and if I remember right, surpassed) Legolas’s kill total at Helm’s Deep, so he’s presumably a comparable warrior. And yet a whole freaking nation of dwarves couldn’t beat one Balrog. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/110 "2009-02-12T06:46:06Z")
who would win in a fight? Batman or Gandalf?! Er… I mean, Gandalf or Raistlin Majere?! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/111 "2009-02-12T07:32:51Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Years ago I was GMing MERP using ICE’s Rolemaster as the system. We routinely had wizards of 3rd or 4th level who could smoke Gandalf’s ass like it ain’t no thing. Not a one of them would be trapped at the top of a tower. I think that Levitate was a 2nd level spell, and Fly was maybe 4th or 5th level. And they didn’t need magic rings to turn invisible. Yeah, but they could also get killed by a lucky housecat… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/112 "2009-02-12T08:10:54Z")
What, manipulating the course of human events isn’t flashy enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/113 "2009-02-12T08:11:52Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > who would win in a fight? Batman or Gandalf?! > > Er… I mean, Gandalf or Raistlin Majere?! Batman would barely escape the first matchup, and then the second time around he’d find a way to make Gandalf submit not by defeating him in combat, but by threatening something he loved. Though Batman would only do that if he knew he had to do it (ie: to save HIS own world or something- he might then threaten to hold all of the Shire hostage by some sort of explosive device). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/114 "2009-02-12T08:14:51Z")
A hedge wizard can snap his fingers and light his cigarette. A true wizard just happens to bump into the guy who will let him bum a smoke, EVERY time he wants one. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/115 "2009-02-12T08:18:45Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > There’s a lot of subtle, veiled magic in the Tolkien universe. Take Legolas running on top of the snow while the hobbits sink in it. He’s not really that lightweight, and there must be magic involved or he’d have no traction and he’d slide down the mountain. Galadrial’s mirror, swords that glow around orcs, the Palantir, these are all artifacts. But the most influential players in the story (Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf…) tend to accomplish their goals without turning someone into a newt. A newt? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/116 "2009-02-12T08:46:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What, manipulating the course of human events isn’t flashy enough for you? Not to mention surviving a fall into an abyss, pursuing the Balrog underground for days, and fighting it for two days in a battle that broke chunks off the mountain. If one of those flashy D&D magic users tried to fry him with a fireball, I suspect he’d stride unharmed out of the flames with an irritated expression and casually lop the magic user’s head off. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/117 "2009-02-12T09:47:35Z")
At least in the movie version, Gandalf fights the Balrog while falling down into a pit, outside the mountain, up the mountain, and then back down the mountain. That’s way beyond a 5th level D&D wizard. If you really want to make a stat block for Gandalf, I’d start with a Solar (a powerful type of angel) and make some modifications. For the Balrog, well, the Balor demons are essentially a direct ripoff, so there you go. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/118 "2009-02-12T13:24:33Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > A newt? The problems with turning people into newts is that they tend to get better. > [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > who would win in a fight? Batman or Gandalf?! Batman would prepare and be ready for Gandalf but would fail to realize that Gandalf dealt in a millennial view and as Batman’s plan unfolded little things would go awry and foil him. For Gandalf deals in both a mix of Divine Intervention and a healthy dose of offstage “[A Wizard Did It](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/119 "2009-02-12T13:51:24Z")
But could Gandalf beat Cthulhu? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279/120 "2009-02-12T13:59:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > But could Gandalf beat Cthulhu? Probably not but maybe he could send him back to his watery dreaming slumbers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-gandalf-considered-a-great-wizard/485279.md?page=7)