# Why is George Lucas despised by so many Star Wars fans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 19, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095 "2009-03-19T23:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/141 "2009-03-25T06:46:12Z")
Hmmm. Never mind! A trip over to Wookieepedia tells me that significant chunks of the Imperial military were ‘recruited in the traditional manner.’ ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/142 "2009-03-25T06:55:26Z")
I always figured Luke wanted to be a pilot, but not necessarily a military pilot. He does say early on that he hates the Empire. (It’s when he’s talking to Ben, right? Can I keep my geek badge?) I always just figured the Academy was where you went to be a pilot, even a civilian one. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/143 "2009-03-25T07:46:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, not really. I was around back in 1977 when _Star Wars_ was released. The general consensus was that it was a throwback to the movie serials of the thirties and forties. The special effects were regarded as state-of-the-art but there had been a string of SF movies that had come out in the nine years since _2001: A Space Odyssey_ had been released in 1968. _Star Wars_ was a thirties style story with a seventies style look - a well-made synthesis but nothing groundbreaking. This. My grandfather was an old time SF nerd. He let me read his ancient magazines and paperbacks, over the protests of my parents, who thought that it wasn’t suitable reading for any child, let alone a girl. I read Lensmans and similar novels and serials. Star Wars was very much a return to science fiction of the 30s, both movie and written version. In those days, there was a lot of talk about the “sense of wonder” that SF was supposed to generate, and SW episodes IV-VI did have that sense of wonder. In TPM, at least, the sense of wonder was completely missing. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/144 "2009-03-25T08:31:50Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > My grandfather was an old time SF nerd. He let me read his ancient magazines and paperbacks, over the protests of my parents, who thought that it wasn’t suitable reading for any child, let alone a girl. I wish I could remember her name, but one of the actresses who appeared in the old “Our Gang” shows has a web site, and she talks about being a science fiction fan as a girl. She said science fiction was such “unacceptable” reading material that she had to hide her science fiction mags inside comic books so nobody would know what she was reading 😛 > [@](#): > > In TPM, at least, the sense of wonder was completely missing. “I wonder how this story will end?” Yeah, I see what you mean. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/145 "2009-03-25T12:39:44Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > When the original _Star Wars_[ came out it was something new and unlike any movie experience before it and it really kind of blew a whole generation away. Then 20 years later the prequels are made and what is fundamentally differnt, just everything about movies in general. they in general are bigger, more popcorn-y, filled with more sophisticated speical effects etc. IN other words the prequels were just like other movies that have been spanned basically by the original Star Wars. We have changed and the world has changed, yet some folks think that you could simple recreate those conditions with the right movie. That’s a valid point, and it was made even at the time. I actually think someone on the SDMB pointed out that while you can make more Star Wars movies, you can’t recreate the EXPERIENCE of watching “Star Wars” in 1977 (please, let’s drop this “A New Hope” nonsense.) But that said, I don’t think that necessarily has to doom the prequels. After all, “The Empire Strikes Back” was wildly popular and is still regarded as the best of all the films, and “Return of the Jedi” was also wildly popular and isn’t despised the way the prequels are, and they came out a reasonably good period of time after the first movie; by 1983, the big time popcorn flick was no longer a new thing. The prequels are disliked because they’re bad movies. There’s just no other way around it; they’re bad. They’re very, very badly written by any standard; forget the fanwanking, they have terrible pacing, dull characters, too many sub-villians, awful comic relief, and they’re too long. We’ve gone on for over 100 posts talking about WHY they’re bad, but that’s what it comes down to; they’re bad movies. They’re not bad sequels/prequels or bad in the Star Wars canon, they’re just simply bad. If you made the same movies with the same scripts and same budget and altered the names and details juuuuuust enough so that they weren’t recognizable as the Star Wars prequels they would have been ripped apart by critics and moviegoes alike , and to be honest I think the third one would have gone straight to video assuming it had been made at all. When you try to understand them in the context of the original trilogy they get WORSE, for many of the reasons cited so far - the inexplicable behaviour of Vader and Palpatine, the disconnects in logic, the ridiculous shoehorning of facts and characters from the first movies, the fact that the characters age at different rates between the trilogies, so on and so forth. But even if you could wave all that way, **the second trilogy would still be bad**. They’re just not well-written movies. And that’s why fans have a hate on for George Lucas; he promised more Star Wars movies about a zillion years ago, had people drooling for them, even had cool movie posters, and when you sat down and watched it, CLUNK. It was bad. “The Phantom Menace” might well have beenh the most long- and eagerly-anticipated movie that has ever been made in the entire history of cinema, and it wsa a turkey. And its sequels were turkeys. That’s inevitably going to piss people off. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/146 "2009-03-25T15:06:30Z")
Okay, on the subject of the “Academy” Luke whines about in _Star Wars_, I remembered that there was some deleted scene or something where he talks it over with Biggs, so I looked it up - > [@](#): > > LUKE: What are you talking about? > > BIGGS: I made some friends at the Academy. (he whispers)…when our > frigate goes to one of the central systems, we’re going to jump ship > and join the Alliance… > > Luke, amazed and stunned, is almost speechless. > > LUKE: Join the Rebellion?! Are you kidding! How? > > BIGGS: Quiet down will ya! You got a mouth bigger than a meteor > crater! > > LUKE: I’m sorry. I’m quiet. (he whispers) Listen how quiet I am. You > can barely hear me… > > Biggs shakes his head angrily and then continues. > > BIGGS: My friend has a friend on Bestine who might help us make > contact. > > LUKE: Your crazy! You could wander around forever trying to find them. > > BIGGS: I know it’s a long shot, but if I don’t find them I’ll do what > I can on my own…It’s what we always talked about. Luke, I’m not > going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion > is spreading and I want to be on the right side – the side I believe > in. > > LUKE: And I’m stuck here… > > BIGGS: I thought you were going to the Academy next term. You’ll get > your chance to get off this rock. > > LUKE: Not likely! I had to cancel my application. There has been a lot > of unrest among the Sandpeople since you left…they’ve even raided > the outskirts of Anchorhead. > > BIGGS: Your uncle could hold off a whole colony of Sandpeople with one > blaster. > > LUKE: I know, but he’s got enough vaporators going to make the place > pay off. He needs me for just one more season. I can’t leave him now. > > BIGGS: I feel for you, Luke, you’re going to have to learn what seems > to be important or what really is important. What good is all your > uncle’s work if it’s taken over by the Empire?..You know they’re > starting to nationalize commerce in the central systems…it won’t be > long before your uncle is merely a tenant, slaving for the greater > glory of the Empire. > > LUKE: It couldn’t happen here. You said it yourself. The Empire won’t > bother with this rock. > > BIGGS: Things always change. > > LUKE: I wish I was going…Are you going to be around long? > > BIGGS: No, I’m leaving in the morning… > > LUKE: Then I guess I won’t see you. > > BIGGS: Maybe someday…I’ll keep a lookout. > > LUKE: Well, I’ll be at the Academy next season…after that who knows. > I won’t be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that’s for sure…Take > care of yourself, you’ll always be the best friend I’ve got. So it looks like I was wrong. The Academy is apparently pilot school or something, with the Empire drafting promising students into the army (air force? Does the Empire have different branches of the service?). Of course, being a gifted pilot Luke _would_ have been drafted, so he would have wound up in the Imperial army anyway, but apparently that wasn’t his goal. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/147 "2009-03-25T15:40:02Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/148 "2009-03-25T15:48:55Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Cite? ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/lRYYnphssCI/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/lRYYnphssCI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Slightly different dialog from the script that shy guy posted, but the gist is the same. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/149 "2009-03-25T16:37:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another clumsy scene was one of the final scenes in _Revenge of the Sith_. Lucas apparently wanted to link the later trilogy with the original one, so he had a scene where Vader and Tarkin are standing on the bridge of the Death Star - just like we had seen them doing in an early scene in _Star Wars_. Nope. They were on the bridge of what looked like a primitive Star Destroyer, looking at the Death Star under construction. Here’s a [clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftzwNn-KbgU), start about 50 seconds in. That actually was a neat scene, though it didn’t come anywhere near making up for the NOOOOOO!!! that preceded it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/150 "2009-03-25T20:31:38Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > This. > > My grandfather was an old time SF nerd. He let me read his ancient magazines and paperbacks, over the protests of my parents, who thought that it wasn’t suitable reading for any child, let alone a girl. I read Lensmans and similar novels and serials. Star Wars was very much a return to science fiction of the 30s, both movie and written version. In those days, there was a lot of talk about the “sense of wonder” that SF was supposed to generate, and SW episodes IV-VI did have that sense of wonder. In TPM, at least, the sense of wonder was completely missing. In Baird Searles’ review of Star Wars in F&SF, IIRC, he said that he was enjoying it until the cantina scene, when he went totally gaga and lost all his critical faculties - because that in particular was such a classic Space Opera scene, and it was done so well. It came earlier for me - right at the beginning, when we saw how big that Star Destroyer was. V and VI didn’t quite have the same sense of wonder, but they continued the story very nicely, and explored the universe. One big problem with the first three is that almost everyone who cared had ideas about the Republic and the Jedi, and the reality according to Lucas did not live up to it. Same reason why so many movies based on beloved books fail. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/151 "2009-03-25T20:47:08Z")
My response is a little bit different. I didn’t dislike the prequels, but I immediately saw that, geez, this isn’t going on as BIG as it ought to be. I diasgree that Lucas should have stopped. He should have blody well kept going. He pulled back and did the “safe” things. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/152 "2009-03-25T22:38:26Z")
> [@Chase\_Ransom](#): > > I liked the prequels, see the point in the story being told (even Jar Jar which I have distaste for but is necessary), and don’t really understand why everyone is so hell bent on hating it. Must be some sort of inner child disillusion or something. > > I like the prequels - all of em. There, I said it. I like them too, and so does my seven year old son. No shame in my game. Sure, I was let down by TPM some, but I thought the next two were great. I guess I’m a sucker for laser battles and lightsaber duels. I even watch the Clone Wars series that’s on cable right now, yes that’s right, the animated one, and I like that too. I think that the expectations for the prequels was so high because of how much time had elapsed between the first three that it was almost impossible to meet them. If I had to order the films in my preference, it would be: Empire Strikes Back Star Wars Episode V Episode IV Return Of The Jedi TPM. See? I’m not THAT much of a geek…I can’t even remember what the names of Episode IV (Clone Wars?) and V even are! So there, nyah, nyah. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/153 "2009-03-25T22:47:42Z")
OT, but… > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRYYnphssCI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRYYnphssCI) > > Slightly different dialog from the script that shy guy posted, but the gist is the same. Okay, that’s the coolest damn thing I’ve ever seen. I’ve loved SW since I saw it eleven times in the theaters (I think I’m the same age as **Mister Rik** ) but I’m not really all that knowledgable in the ‘ephemera’. I had no idea there were deleted scenes of this length floating around. Thanks so much for posting this! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/154 "2009-03-25T23:36:40Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRYYnphssCI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRYYnphssCI) > > Slightly different dialog from the script that shy guy posted, but the gist is the same. I’ve seen the script, but never actually the deleted scene before. That’s really cool. It’s a shame it got cut; Mark Hamill did more convincing acting in those 3 minutes than he did in all 3 movies. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/155 "2009-03-26T00:00:50Z")
I like how, at 2:36, Luke gets a pat on the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/156 "2009-03-26T00:17:39Z")
> [@choie](#): > > OT, but… > > Okay, that’s the coolest damn thing I’ve ever seen. I’ve loved SW since I saw it eleven times in the theaters (I think I’m the same age as **Mister Rik** ) but I’m not really all that knowledgable in the ‘ephemera’. I had no idea there were deleted scenes of this length floating around. > > Thanks so much for posting this! BTW, those deleted scenes were included in the Star Wars radio series that ran on NPR a long time back. I don’t know if they were word for word, though. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/157 "2009-03-26T00:39:59Z")
I really think they started in the wrong place with the prequels. I didn’t like the fact that it started off with wittle Anakin Skywalker as a cute wittle kid, and I hated the characters of Qui-Gon Jinn and I hated all of the villains like Darth Maul, and I hated the whole Clone War plot. I know the fans are all obsessed with the clone part, but I just think it’s a stupid story. (Clones are a way played-out concept in science fiction…enough with the fucking clones!) Fuck the droid armies, fuck the clone troopers, fuck Naboo, whatever. Revenge of the Sith should have been the FIRST of the prequels. The next two prequels should have focused on the founding of the Galactic Empire under Palpatine, and on the other side, the founding of the Rebel Alliance. There were a lot of great characters that they could have given more back story to. Grand Moff Tarkin, for one (Hugh Laurie would have been phenomenal as the younger version of him.) General Veers (the badass AT-AT commander from Empire Strikes Back) could have been given a backstory as well. Some of the other Imperial guys like the Emperor’s Guard could have had some background too - show how the red guards were formed, etc. And Han Solo, as I understand it, started out as a TIE pilot, and it would have been super-badass to show that part of his life. (I know someone will probably say that it’s not “canon,” or whatever, but I don’t care. Han Solo is badass, and TIE pilots with their black-skull helmets are badass. Han Solo + TIE pilots = megabadass.) On the Rebel side, they should have shown the formation of the Rebel fleet, with all those generals who command everything in Empire Strikes Back and towards the end of “A New Hope.” (I assume those guys are mostly Imperial officers who defected.) The mass defection of Imperial troops to support the Rebellion, and the subsequent recruiting of people from all over the galaxy to join the cause, would also make a good storyline in a movie. The final prequel could have been about Han Solo’s criminal career working for Jabba the Hutt, the adolescent Princess Leia on Alderaan, and other backstories for the original characters. (NOT Boba Fett - a character like that SHOULD NOT HAVE BACKSTORY because it makes him more mysterious - I wish they had grasped that very simple concept!) I know my idea would be thrown right in the trash can though, by the vast majority of Star Wars superfans. Most of them are obsessed with the Clone Wars storyline, even while they trash George Lucas (who spoon-fed it to them in the first place.) THE CLONE WARS IS A LAME STORY! ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/158 "2009-03-26T01:05:35Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Empire Strikes Back > Star Wars > Episode V > Episode IV > Return Of The Jedi > TPM. > > See? I’m not THAT much of a geek…I can’t even remember what the names of Episode IV (Clone Wars?) and V even are! So there, nyah, nyah. You don’t even qualify as an apprentice geek. “Star Wars” is episode IV, unless you meant the fourth one filmed, which would be TPM. “The Empire Strikes Back” was labeled as episode V, but the fifth one filmed was “Attack of the Clones.” “Clone Wars” was animated. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/159 "2009-03-26T02:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope. They were on the bridge of what looked like a primitive Star Destroyer, looking at the Death Star under construction. Here’s a clip, start about 50 seconds in. That actually was a neat scene, though it didn’t come anywhere near making up for the NOOOOOO!!! that preceded it. Okay, I had it wrong. I remembered there was a scene with the Death Star and Vader and Tarkin standing on the bridge. I guess my brain had gone numb by that point. > [@](#): > > I know the fans are all obsessed with the clone part, but I just think it’s a stupid story. (Clones are a way played-out concept in science fiction…enough with the fucking clones!) I think this was another mainfestation of Lucas’ “Greedo shot first” revisionism. People had commented over the years about how scores of anonymous storm troopers would get slaughtered by our heroes. So Lucas wanted to revise history to show that the storm troopers were just clones so they didn’t “count” and it was okay to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095/160 "2009-03-26T02:12:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So Lucas wanted to revise history to show that the storm troopers were just clones so they didn’t “count” and it was okay to kill them. :eek: That bastard! Clones are people, two! d&r [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-george-lucas-despised-by-so-many-star-wars-fans/490095.md?page=9)