Why is God even worthy of our worship?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!]
My answer: The Lord works in mysterious ways. Why did God punish the Egyptians? God hardening pharaoh’s heart makes not a lick of sense to me. It seems manipulative and downright mean and, yeah, evil. So why did God do it instead of finding some more benevolent method? I can’t tell you, because I don’t know. I can speculate, but for me to assume to understand God and His motives would be rather presumptuous. But I believe (and I mean really believe) that everything God has ever done or will ever do, from creation up through today and into the future, somehow works towards the day when we are one with God forever in perfect bliss. I don’t pretend to understand all of the intermediate steps.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t want to get up your nose, but I personally consider “The Lord works in mysterious ways” to be the mother of all cop-outs. But aside from my personal distaste, doesn’t it also destroy the entire concept of morality?

If, by definition, anything that God does is “good,” the word ceases to have any meaning whatsoever. And then the statement, “We should worship God,” becomes meaningless as well, since “should” is a moral statement, and if it’s not a moral choice (i.e., we should worship God because He’s the ultimate good) it becomes merely a utilitarian statement (i.e., it is in our interest to worship God because he has ultimate power and demands it). And that throws out morality, love, goodness, and basically everything religious people generally claim they derive from their religion.

22

[QUOTE=LeftFootRightFoot]

What kind of god would do this to their people (unless god doesn’t count Egyptians as people). Murdering all first-borns? Most of the Egyptians were probably living in poor conditions and hating the Pharoah for their plight. Why not simply kill the pharoah, or appear before him and convince him otherwise?

And those of you who say that “it’s just a tale, meant to show god’s wrath, or how hard it was for the jews to escape from Egypt”, then why not throw the rest of the bible out too? Who are we to pick and choose from god’s holy words?

I’ve always been of the most fundamental of atheists, but I had never heard of the 10 plagues in such detail, I figured it was exagerated or something. When I read them I was in shock that people could respect and worship such a being, let alone use that tale as a moral guide to living life.
[/QUOTE]

I think that’s the point - God doesn’t care about the Egyptians. He is a tribal god, the god of the Israelites. The Egyptians had their own gods to protect them (or not, as the case may be).

The Old Testament is the story of a God and his Chosen People. That god doesn’t deny the existence of other gods, he simply claims to be mightier than them. And he will show no mercy to those who bow down to them.

It’s all great fun to read, but to reconcile that deity with the deity of the New Testament, well, there I’m afraid you need to be a Christian and run your mind through some pretty convoluted mental loops. I’m not, so I won’t.

23

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
The same logic can be applied to ones parents. However, they don’t require me to bow and grovel and worship them. You can be grateful without being a wimpering slave.
[/QUOTE]

Slight difference - your parents were just the agents of a biological process that they may or may not have understood. That doesn’t earn them the right to worship. Also, worship of God is not the same as being a whimpering slave. Unfortunately that doesn’t leave much of your post intact.

Not quite: I say that if God is an evil, powerful creature, it will not make matters any worse if I treat him as good; and, quite frankly, my morality will not be of much consequence either.

I agree there’s some hard stuff going down in the OT. But I expect a balanced judgement on the matter from Dawkins the way I expect a scholarly appraisal of the Narnia books from Philip Pullman. God is repeatedly forgiving and merciful, as in the account where Abraham is allowed to plead for Sodom and extract a promise from God that He will spare the city if there be only ten righteous men in it. He allows Moses to intercede for the wandering Israelites who have set up idols and begun worshipping them the instant Moses was otherwise engaged. He repeatedly defends them from genocide. He promises them rich blessings if they will only keep his laws and they foolishly turn their backs on him again and again. The OT account is too complex simply to dismiss God in Dawkins’s harsh terms (although I wonder that he takes the time to criticize an imaginary figure).

I believe that before you could call God evil you would have to demonstrate that he had no right to act as he did. I don’t think we’ve got there yet.

24

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
The same logic can be applied to ones parents. However, they don’t require me to bow and grovel and worship them. You can be grateful without being a wimpering slave.
[/QUOTE]

The word “worship” requires neither grovelling, whimpering, nor slavery. At its heart it means nothing more than “hold in high respect.” The word has become a caricature for grovelling, but at one time it wouldn’t have been considered strange to say, “I worship my parents.” Evidence of this is seen in addressing. for example, the mayor as “Your Worship.”

25

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
This issue, I think, is one on which I’m perfectly willing to practice a version of Pascal’s Wager. If God is horribly evil, then I can hardly make matters worse by acting as though he is perfectly good. If God is perfectly good, though, it would be very wrong of me indeed to act as though he is horribly evil.

[/QUOTE]
There’s other possibilities, even if we discount the possiblity that you are worshipping the wrong evil god, and you are making the right one even more pissed than if you were atheist!

Have you considered these possibilities:
– God might look with favor upon those with enough will or intelligence to question His word, and cast mindless believers into Hell (hey, he’s evil after all and rebels are more interesting to have around.)
– God will extinguish everyone’s souls regardless of what anyone does, and if that’s gonna happen you might as well concentrate on living how you wish to live rather than groveling.
– As an evil entity, God might look with favor upon those that commit evil acts, as man was created in the image of god. The good people will be cast into hell or extinguished since they did not emulate God.

All four possibililities and many more must be taken into account when analyzing Pascal’s Wager :slight_smile:

26

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
If you believe that god is sorta good, but also really, really evil, why would you continue to worship? This is a serious question. I can only guess at your motivation. Do you convince yourself that if you say you believe, maybe he won’t send you to hell?

As many of his former employees will tell you, Ken Lay was sorta good, but also really, really evil. Would you put your trust in him? Would you find him worthy of devotion?

How do you separate the good from the bad and choose to put all your eggs in the “good” basket, ignoring the truth (as you admit you see it) that god commits (or allows, despite his omniscience and power) unspeakable sins against humanity every day. What makes you choose to follow?
[/QUOTE]

I see nowhere that Mayo said that God was “sorta good, but also really, really evil.” The closest thing in Mayo’s post was saying (on the topic of God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart)

[QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!]
It seems manipulative and downright mean and, yeah, evil.
[/QUOTE]
Bolding mine. Mayo states that he can’t understand God’s actions or motivations. He (and all of us really) can only speculate. He observes that the actions seem evil. Nowhere does he say that the actions are evil or that the one acting (God) is evil or as you claim he says “sorta good, but also really, really evil.”
I guess what I’m trying to get across here is that if you want an argument Kalhoun you might want to try understanding (or at least reading) other people’s statements.

As for me, (and this is entirely me. I can’t speak for anyone besides myself.) I believe that God is good. Not “sorta good,” or “good at time,” but flat out good. For humans, trying to understand the thought behind God’s actions is as pointless as an ant trying to understand the motivation of a human. It is impossible for us to understand “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways ,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8) Now we see but a poor reflection, as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.* (1 Corinthians 13:12) The workings of God aren’t for us to understand; not now anyways.

Post script: I apologise, Mayo, if I misrepresented or misstated the intent of your post. I was simply putting forth my interpretation of your post in response to what I perceive as Kalhoun misunderstanding or misrepresenting you words.

*For clarity’s sake, I’ll point out that mirrors at the time when this was written (around AD 55) were, IIRC, little more than polished metal, offering a poor and clouded reflection.

27

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Not quite: I say that if God is an evil, powerful creature, it will not make matters any worse if I treat him as good; and, quite frankly, my morality will not be of much consequence either.
[/QUOTE]

I understand it’s hypothetical. Why won’t your morality be of any consequence? And what is your comment on my point that it is morally the same as supporting an evil dictator?

-And so what if he is not evil *all the time[/]? We wouldn’t acquit a serial killer because he regularly helps old people cross the streets. If you murder someone, you are a murderer, even if you help to save someone else at a later time. God often acted in ways that support all of Dawkins accusations.

-You wonder why he takes so much time to criticize an imaginary figure? What about the fact that a very large part of earth population believes in this imaginary figure, and live their lives by his word?

-If we cannot call god evil for his actions in the bible, who in the world can we call evil? If we cannot demonstrate that he “didn’t have right” to commit all those acts of genocide, how can we demonstrate that, for instance, Saddam Hussein didnt have right to commit his genocides? And if we cannot prove that god had no right to support people who encourage rape, can we prove that the romans had no right to torture and kill Jesus?

28

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Slight difference - your parents were just the agents of a biological process that they may or may not have understood. That doesn’t earn them the right to worship. Also, worship of God is not the same as being a whimpering slave. Unfortunately that doesn’t leave much of your post intact.

[/QUOTE]

Well, be that as it may, God didn’t directly create me, just put into place the biological processes that led to my parents creating me. God also didn’t tend to my illnesses, take me to the park, feed me, clothe me, and sacrafice his life to raise me, and me alone. More there to earn my worship than there is to the invisible guy that may or may not have created “me.”

And you must not go to church much. The principle of humility and God’s grace is a pretty common theme in sermons. How much of a worm us humans are is another pretty common idea that crops up in sermons and in worship songs. Talking about how unworthy, how much of a worm, or any number of other “I am sooo lucky to have you” statements like that all point to wimpering slaves.

The fact that God is beign of cruelety and vindictiveness that rivals and Saddam or Hitler, created Hell for his enemies (what happened to an eye for an eye?), set us up for the fall in the first place, and then creates an elaborate situation in which he “forgives” us a sin he pretty much created us to fall for, shows us how Machivellian he truely is. The fact that a human thinks he is a worm compared to such an atrocious creature is pretty much wimpering. The fact that worshiping him limits ones freedoms and controls a persons live, makes them a slave.

Not much left of your post now.

29

[QUOTE=Lord Il Palazzo]
As for me, (and this is entirely me. I can’t speak for anyone besides myself.) I believe that God is good. Not “sorta good,” or “good at time,” but flat out good. For humans, trying to understand the thought behind God’s actions is as pointless as an ant trying to understand the motivation of a human. It is impossible for us to understand
[/QUOTE]

If you admit yourself that you cannot judge god’s morals based on your own judgement, is it not at least possibly that god is actually evil? If not, why not? If you say that it is because of some “feeling” you have, is it not possible that this feeling is a result of propaganda? Some people living in dictatorships have explained that they feel that their dictator is perfectly good, and this is caused by propaganda.

30

[QUOTE=mr. jp]
If you admit yourself that you cannot judge god’s morals based on your own judgement, is it not at least possibly that god is actually evil? If not, why not? If you say that it is because of some “feeling” you have, is it not possible that this feeling is a result of propaganda? Some people living in dictatorships have explained that they feel that their dictator is perfectly good, and this is caused by propaganda.
[/QUOTE]
No. I do not believe there is even the slightest of possibilities that God is evil. I believe (as I imagine can be ascertained from my use of it in my previous post) that the Bible is a true and accurate representation of God and is in fact the word of God. The Bible chronicles God’s relationship with his people through the ages. Both from God’s words and actions in the Bible, and from his presence in my life, I say as much certainty as I have of anything that God is good.

31

[QUOTE=Lord Il Palazzo]
No. I do not believe there is even the slightest of possibilities that God is evil. I believe (as I imagine can be ascertained from my use of it in my previous post) that the Bible is a true and accurate representation of God and is in fact the word of God. The Bible chronicles God’s relationship with his people through the ages. Both from God’s words and actions in the Bible, and from his presence in my life, I say as much certainty as I have of anything that God is good.
[/QUOTE]

Lets assume that the bible is the word of god and all that. Why does this mean that god is good? Do you even have an indication of this, apart from the fact that he says so about himself?

32

The way I look at it, the only way God of the OT can be “good” is if there really is hidden meanings behind his putatively-evil acts that we would understand if we only had the wisdom. But from all evidence, he is evil if he exists as per the OT.

People might wish to redefine Good as “what God does”, but that makes as little sense as redefining “racist” as “any white person”. When you state “God is good”, most people won’t think you are saying “Since God is the creator of moral values, anything he does, by definition, is good, even if people would think otherwise by applying normal standards to His actions,” they think you are saying “All God’s actions would fit into the commonly-defined meaning of Good, if we only had all the information.”

So, even if God does exist and is the creator of moral values, it still doesn’t mean that the phrase “God is good” is true: since that phrase is in English, one must use English grammer and vocabulary, and many of His actions in the OT would be qualified as evil using standard definitions.

Even if they are redefined as morally acceptable since they come from the Creator, one must find a different word than “Good” to describe them, since that word’s already taken.

33

Well, be that as it may, your parents didn’t create one scintilla of what they used to sustain you, and can be viewed more as your custodians than your creators. That’s why I argue that you shouldn’t worship them. But as for the underlined phrase, Christians believe that he did exactly that. :slight_smile:

Actually, I go to church a fair bit - often enough to have a reasonable idea of what gets said there, instead of having to imagine it and then rant and rave against what I’ve imagined. If you find it hard to understand why I should consider myself utterly insignificant and inconsequential in comparison to the hand and mind that spun the Universe out of nothingness, I don’t believe I’m going to be able to explain it to you. If you don’t understand why I should be able to acknowledge that I never, on the best day I ever had, gave God anything like the service that he deserved of me, even to as trivial a matter as patiently entertaining some cross old lady with cheerfulness and good grace, I can’t explain that either. And if you don’t understand why I should find it wonderful beyond words that nevertheless this God who is praiseworthy beyond my feeble comprehension actually wants me to be remade in the image of his Son… you know that I cannot explain it.

I am truly sorry you feel that way. I don’t feel controlled, I don’t feel limited, I don’t feel manipulated and I don’t believe that God is cruel or vindictive. But the only rational reason I could see for holding such a view as yours would be a conviction that God will reward only those who rant and rave against him. I choose to find such a view unsustainable.

34

[QUOTE=Epimetheus]
And you must not go to church much.
[/QUOTE]

Would you mind not making these small insults? In this thread we are questioning the very core beliefs of some people, and yet the tone of the debate has so far been nice. I don’t want that ruined.

35

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
If you find it hard to understand why I should consider myself utterly insignificant and inconsequential in comparison to the hand and mind that spun the Universe out of nothingness, I don’t believe I’m going to be able to explain it to you.
[/QUOTE]

If we hypothetically assume that god is evil. So we have a creature that created earth, and is evil.

Would you still worship him?

Reasons I can think of to worship him:

  • Without him, I wouldnt be alive.

Same goes for parents. See earlier argument.

-He is very skilled. So skilled that he could create earth.

I don’t think its correct to worship people/beings just because they are skilled, even if they are very skilled. If they have bad morals, I wouldn’t worship them no matter what

36

[QUOTE=Malacandra]

I am truly sorry you feel that way. I don’t feel controlled, I don’t feel limited, I don’t feel manipulated and I don’t believe that God is cruel or vindictive. But the only rational reason I could see for holding such a view as yours would be a conviction that God will reward only those who rant and rave against him. I choose to find such a view unsustainable.
[/QUOTE]

Do the people who stood up to dictators in the past think they were going to be rewarded by the dictator? No, they probably expected to be punished horribly for speaking out, and the more realistic-minded ones probably realized that they weren’t going to be able to do anything about getting the dictator out of their position of power. They spoke out against the cruelties of their leader because they had had enough - they felt morally obligated to speak out against evil and could not justify bowing down to them, even if it was the only way to survive.

There are people who believe that the Bible is true, that there is a God and he did do the things described in the Bible, and they hate him for it. They know in their hearts that they will probably suffer eternally at the hands of this God and still can’t bring themselves to respect him.

37

[QUOTE=Lord Il Palazzo]
I see nowhere that Mayo said that God was “sorta good, but also really, really evil.” The closest thing in Mayo’s post was saying (on the topic of God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart)
Bolding mine. Mayo states that he can’t understand God’s actions or motivations. He (and all of us really) can only speculate. He observes that the actions seem evil. Nowhere does he say that the actions are evil or that the one acting (God) is evil or as you claim he says “sorta good, but also really, really evil.”
I guess what I’m trying to get across here is that if you want an argument Kalhoun you might want to try understanding (or at least reading) other people’s statements.
[/quote]
Hey, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck…

It seems evil to me, too. I have seen no indication that it is anything but evil. That’s not to say that if there is a god, the good in the world couldn’t be contributed to him as well, but if you believe that he is all-powerful, you have to acknowledge that he’s in charge of both ends of the spectrum. And if he can do good, and chooses to do bad, well…that doesn’t speak well of him.

I don’t know what his reasons would be either, but what does that have to do with anything other than the fact that you’re willing to condone bad behavior? I don’t know the reasons for a lot of shitty stuff in the world. But 1) why wouldn’t you question it, and 2) why would you worship it? When someone murders another person, well…that person is off my christmas card list.

If you want to show me the silver lining in the tsunami or the pot of gold at the end of the Katrina rainbow, I’d be willing to interpret god’s behavior as something other than evil in those scenarios.

38

[QUOTE=mr. jp]
Would you mind not making these small insults? In this thread we are questioning the very core beliefs of some people, and yet the tone of the debate has so far been nice. I don’t want that ruined.
[/QUOTE]

Fair do’s, mr. jp, when Epimetheus said:

he was only giving me a spoonful of my own medicine.

39

I’m an atheist, but, for the sake of this argument, let’s say that God exists and that everything you believe about his being good is true. How does that oblige you to worship him?

I might admire someone who had attained such high levels of “goodness”, and it might even inspire me to be a better person myself, but that doesn’t mean I owe that being anything.

If it’s just that he’s responsible for all creation, do I owe him anything more than a “thanks”? I didn’t ask to be created, so it’s not like he did me any favors, so I don’t think I owe him even that. If I built a sentient robot so it would walk around behind me all the time, telling everybody how great and wonderful I am, everyone would probably think of me as a pathetic loser, even if I had solved the problems of AI.

Why does a perfct being need to be worshipped, anyway? I don’t even like having a dog that loves me unconditionally. I can’t imagine the ego that needs a whole universe telling him how great he is.

I’ve often thought about what it would take to get me to convert (back) to Christianity. What sort of proof would be possible? If a being appeared to me and said “Here I am. It’s me. God.”, I can’t think of anything that being could do to convince me it was supernatural and not just an incredibly advanced species whose technology appeared magical. All I’m left with, all I can be sure of, is that it could force me to worship it because of it’s huge amount of power, but that’s not the same as being worthy of it. God is basically the ultimate in “might makes right” thinking.

40

[QUOTE=Rufus Xavier]
If you accept the concept that God exists, then you must accept the concept that God is responsible for the fact that you exist.
[/quote]
No, that would be my parents and myself; as sentient beings we are largely self-created. I don’t worship my parents or myself, either.

[QUOTE=Rufus Xavier]
It therefore follows that if you are thankful for your existence, then you owe God a fair amount of gratitude. Everything else is details.
[/QUOTE]
Besides the fact that God being a monster or a lunatic is not a detail , what if I’m not thankful ? I consider life barely tolerable at best, and outright hellish for most of humanity throughout history. Humans are a badly made species, full of flaws and weaknesses. I’ve always considered the idea that God made us an indictment of God.

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Also, worship of God is not the same as being a whimpering slave.
[/quote]
In your eyes, perhaps not. In mine, it does. I’ve heard the term “Slave of God” used by believers as something to admire.

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Not quite: I say that if God is an evil, powerful creature, it will not make matters any worse if I treat him as good; and, quite frankly, my morality will not be of much consequence either.
[/QUOTE]
How do you know ? Perhaps he has a special dislike of Pascal’s Wager and makes a point of punishing anyone who likes the idea. Perhaps he only respects those who defy or ignore him, and heaven is full of atheists and Satanists. < preview > Like Ludovic says.

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
The OT account is too complex simply to dismiss God in Dawkins’s harsh terms (although I wonder that he takes the time to criticize an imaginary figure).
[/quote]
Not really; monstrous behavior is monstrous behavior. He takes the time to criticize it, of course, because such beliefs are a danger to his scientific field, legacy, and career, and because they do great harm to the world in his eyes. It doesn’t matter in the slightest that it’s all fiction; the harm done is quite real.

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
I believe that before you could call God evil you would have to demonstrate that he had no right to act as he did. I don’t think we’ve got there yet.
[/QUOTE]
NO ONE has the right to act that way. No one and nothing. And yes, we have a perfect right to judge God, being his victims.

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
I don’t feel controlled, I don’t feel limited, I don’t feel manipulated and I don’t believe that God is cruel or vindictive. But the only rational reason I could see for holding such a view as yours would be a conviction that God will reward only those who rant and rave against him.
[/QUOTE]
You are and he is; read your own “holy book”. It is your beliefs that are irrational, completely so. The God of the Old Testament is a blatant, outright monster and tyrant.

[QUOTE=Salt Seller]
I’m an atheist, but, for the sake of this argument, let’s say that God exists and that everything you believe about his being good is true. How does that oblige you to worship him?
[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Why worship anything ?