This question reminded me of a half-remembered “Star Trek” episode (I may not have ever aired this way, but I think the general description is buried in pop culture somewhere)…
Kirk kisses the alien girl, who responds something like “What is this action?”
“It’s called a kiss; it’s what Eathings do to express love.”
Looking confused, she then asks “What is this Earth ‘love’ you speak of?”
Do you have any doubt as to why the screenwriters would include a scene like that?
Sorry I didn’t make it clearer, but do you see a God ruling over our world at the moment? Nope. When the end comes, though, you better believe he’s going to be deciding who gets to get off this rock and go to wherever he sends you and who stays to burn in “hell” (which as I read somewhere is also the ancient Hebrew word for Earth).
Then you need to get out more. There are lots of athiests who don’t celebrate Christmas. I find it hard to think of Christmas as a non-religious holiday. My experience is that the only people who think that were raised Christian.
Telemark, my girlfriend is an atheist, raised by atheists. They celebrate Christmas. It’s just a party with a tree. A chance to get and give presents. It has far more pagan precedent than christian. Regardless, in America at least, it’s a consumerist holiday more than anything.
Fonz, forgive me if I’m confused, but I have no idea what your actual point has been. Your original post was quite in the vein of the traditional, foaming christian. Now it would seem that you believe in god, don’t follow him, and think you’ll be going to hell for it?
Mayo, I don’t believe dieties are real, even the Christian one, so you’re right, I can’t relate to where you’re coming from. My position is they’re mental constructs that have had extensive mythologies attached to aid in legitimacy promotion. But I have to say it’s refreshing to communicate with someone who’s open about his commitment to his beliefs, yet doesn’t express knee-jerk vitriole against those who don’t share them.
You and I could have many heated conversations, man
I believe in God. I don’t believe I’ll be going to Heaven because, due to some sad circumstances, I’ve been exposed to pollutants all my life and will be dying a horrible death when, in the coming years, I am deprived of nutrition and clean water and these pollutants I’ve consumed wreak havoc on my body and genetic integrity. It sucks, but shit happens.
I believe there are those out there that don’t wish you to know these things because there is no helping your situation, and rather than have you know of your plight, wish to forestall you finding out your fate for as long as possible.
If I get you right, God is like a mother (or father) who goes off drinking leaving the toddlers to play by themselves. Maybe we should call Family Services on god.
I never understood the comfort derived from thinking there is a reason for everything, that reason being God works in mysterious ways.
My comfort from non-belief is first of all not having to worry about pissing off a deity who might do bad things to me. Happily I grew up Jewish, without either hell or damnation, but now I don’t have to feel guilty about not being Jewish enough.
But the greatest comfort is having an explanation for everything - though that explanation might be shit happens. I’m lucky in not having a lot of bad things happen to me in 54 years, but when I see a plane crash, or a child born deformed, or someone getting sick, I find it far more comforting to think that these things just happen, and are not the result of anything wrong the person did, or a result from a benevolent deity playing tricks. I find it far more comforting that we own our future. (But I like self-serve.) How useless it would be if we fought for a better future for our kids only to have God say “game over.” And I’d rather work out my own moral code, one I can live with, and not have to try and conform to one thousands of years old, self-contradictory, changing, and often just plain evil.
Weeeell, the problem in understanding arises when you don’t fully understand the reasons why God had to leave. In the electric universe, all planet are NOT created equal. Well, they are, but over time the electrons on the surface leak down into the core and the energy fields that were originally established begin to wear down. In order for God to maintain his powers and be able to foresee certain problems he must always be on a planet of the greatest energy fields. Our planet began losing these fields long ago, and in his absence other powerful humans tried to use the Earth for their own deviant purposes.
With all due respect, “shit happens” isn’t an explanation for anything. Of course, the alternatives you cite–the person did something wrong, a deity playing tricks–are not explanations either.
One of the consistent themes I see in this thread is that the typical Christian response to tragedy–“God works in mysterious ways”–is ridiculous. On some level I agree, but let’s flesh out the story a bit more.
Believing the Christian idea that there is some unknowable purpose behind even the most heinous events is not as callous as it is usually presented, which is often as an ignorant moron spouting platitudes like the one above. But even laying that criticism aside, I wonder if you’d agree with the following motive: That in trying however awkwardly to offer another human being solace for some terrible loss–and at some point, when someone suffers a terrible loss, they almost inevitably ask “why?”–what they are really trying to offer is (here’s that word again) comfort.
Many may consider that comfort inadequate, and perhaps even vicious, but I also believe that the alternative non-Theist answer–“shit happens”–is even less of a comfort. I’m not saying this to belittle atheism, but merely to point out that it doesn’t do any better of a job that actions rooted in Theism do in this case, so I don’t believe it’s a valid criticism of Theism.
In fact, I’d say the “mysterious ways” answer, if couched properly, would offer at least a few people comfort in a trying time. On the other hand, I fail to see any comfort in telling someone that their life has no purpose, that there is no reason for the bad things that happen. Worse I think would be someone offering advice that says God is really just a malevolent force just waiting to screw with you. OK, it’s not a definitive proof in favor of Theism, but some measure of comfort is an advantage of adopting a Theist world view. I understand that Atheists aren’t willing to sacrifice sure knowledge of God’s non-existence for something that, in the end, amounts to a pacifier, and I’m not suggesting they do. I guess this thread started by asking how anyone could believe in God given his apparent malevolence, and I hope I’ve finally brought it back round to that.
BTW, I agree with you in working out our own moral code. I also do not believe the Bible is a rule book for morality; it is too contradictory and hodgepodge for that. But it is a source (among others) for the personal moral code that I’ve developed. I think I’ve explained my own rationale for that in previous posts.
A problem with the “God works in mysterious ways” (if couched properly, as you suggest) way of comforting people is that it assumes the reaction will be “At least it happened for a purpose, rather than it just being a random occurence”. There’s definetly potential for getting some comfort for that. On the other hand, the mourner might take it to mean “God has taken my loved one from me; how can someone do that?”. Not giving (or being able to give) a reason for God acting in that way might actually engender a hatred for God, as opposed to giving comfort.
And alternate problem might be that, as God’s motivations are not understandable, that God’s actions are mere whims; and being at the mercy of a God’s whims has no real difference to a random act of fate.
I don’t think it’s supposed to be taken literally.
Thinking creatures with free will.
Like most things in life, it’s not that simple, and your failure to understand does not make it incomprehensible.
The Bible isn’t about God, it’s about man, and secondly about his relationship to God. As such, it reflects the values and mores of its times.
This story isn’t so much about God, as it is about Pharoh. Pharoh behaves unreasonably and is manipulated by his son. He goes back on his word and sets himself on a course for his own destruction. He is inconstant and doesn’t follow through on his promises.
God, acts as an agent of fate in this, but God is not the focus of the story and his actions are not the important ones to be analyzed. Pharoh’s initial threat ultimately boomerangs back on him.
By that I am asking, why do you accept, without question, that god is causing chaos and death and pain on the planet. You say “well, he must have a reason for doing it”, but you can apply that logic to anyone who goes off on society. The 911 terrorists had a reason that we “can’t understand”. If you believe that these acts can go unchallenged, then I believe you lack the intellectual curiousity that is required to function productively in this world.
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There is a particular comfort in having that; I do not mean to say this is a reason for believing in God–far from it–just that it exists.
They’re welcome to it. It doesn’t do a thing for me and I’m only too happy to be free of it.
I don’t know any atheists who would deny themselves the celebration of Christmas if that’s what they wanted to do. I celebrate Christmas. There is no such thing as an “atheist obligation” to AVOID religiously themed activities, if that’s what you mean. There are no atheist obligations at all. It’s not a belief system, it’s just a LACK of belief. There are no demands.
Who has said otherwise. Atheism is not a “principle,” though. It’s just a lack of belief in gods. My personal ethos has nothing to do with my non-belief.
