Why is government involved in marriage at all?

Lilairen, I see your argument but I believe you are missing a minor detail. I think the point (ok, my point) of calling what you do signing a document in front of a judge of law to formalize your union to someone else a “civil union” is precisely freeing up the word “marriage” to cover all other ways of bonding a couple.

If you extend “marriage” to say, same sex couples, you are then denying it to the guy with the 7-year live-in boy/girlfriend who hasn’t bothered to go to a church or a court to have that formalized for whatever reasons of their own. Either that or you are forcing them to show up at either court or church to get a “something” that formalizes it.

The big problem with this is that people have stopped making the distinction (that you correctly made) between marriage (the human union) and matrimony (the religious union).

People should get together to have a marriage, go to court to get a union and go to church to get a matrimony. All independently of each other.

Catholic matrimony, for example, extends beyond marriage when the couple divorces (unless they can get an annulment). Marriage ends when a couple gets separated but still hasn’t divorced by law.

In the end, though, you are right. The desire of the majority who push for civil unions is mostly to spite marriages they don’t like. And will take forever and a day to make people stop using the words union, marriage and matrimony the way better suits their agenda.

Personally, I have no problem with people who can’t be arsed to ritualise their marriages not having people generally accepting them as marriages. Marriage is about the social recognition of the relationship; if someone doesn’t want to go to any effort to have their relationship socially recognised, then that lack of social recognition is not shocking to me.

I know a couple whose marriage was specifically set up to not include the legal documentation; they performed the social ritual with the breaking of the glass and everything, and are generally accepted as married by the people who matter to them. I certainly accept them as married, though I imagine I’m utterly irrelevant to them (and one of them pisses me the hell off by breathing, heh).

I know a couple who only got married after same-sex couples were able to legally marry in Massachusetts, because she is bisexual. Since she figured it was even odds on the sex of her chosen life-partner, she refused to marry before she was no longer partaking of heterosexual privilege to do so. They were still completely committed to each other, settled in for the long term, but the nuance on the social ritualisation was something they considered important enough to wait for.

If I ever marry my boyfriend, it will, obviously, only be able to be a social ritualisation, as I have no religious option and the legal option is unavailable to us. But I would under no circumstances consider us to be married without getting off our asses and actually doing the social ritual.

But I’m not suggesting that we discard the terminology of marriage. I do understand that the terminology is important. What I’m suggesting is that the government should butt out and have no say in the definition of that terminology.

The result would be that everyone who wants to call themselves married would be able to, right? Those who belong to a religion can follow that religion’s ritual, and those who belong to some other group can follow that group’s ritual, and more independent minded folks can either make up their own ritual, or simply call themselves “married”, and no one can stop them.

On the other hand…

Obviously, there’s something I’m misunderstanding. But I really am trying to understand you, or else I would have quit this thread a few days ago. So here’s my question: What do you mean by “the social ritual”? Are you referring to having some sort of hall with all your friends and relatives sitting around, and you and your boyfriend up front saying stuff and trading rings, and some sort of emcee saying “I now pronounce you married.” Is that what you’re referring to? Because if that is what you are referring to, I don’t see how my suggestion would stand in your way.

No, you were clear, I was just saying marriage should be outlawed altogether. :wink:

Government is involved in marriage for some reason I can’t fathom.

Every marriage can be had. Marry a yule log, then divorce it for your old Nintendo. Have at it, fella. Just don’t make it a tax break.

I assume it comes from a need/desire to keep our “customs” alive. Tax breaks for the married means that “our way of life” keeps on a-chugging.

Which I perceive as ceding the field to those people who do not believe that marriage is a religion-neutral concept. If marriage had never been centralised – if people still had the ability to jump the broom and be considered married – then I would oppose the centralisation thereof, but ceding the idea of marriage as having neutral turf in the current environment just looks like a path to social balkanisation to me.

Marriage is a social ritual; the participants are the people getting married and the community. (You can see evidence for this in religious writeups for liturgical marriage rituals: the couple and the community both undertake obligations to support the marriage.) This is why there is any sense of regulation for marriage at all – the concept of marriage presents a relationship to the community as something established and thus to be respected, and the community has a say in what it will respect.

People who just want to form partnerships have no need of the social ritual. My aunt and uncle have been together for forty years or something like that without undertaking the social rituals of marriage. My boyfriend and his other partner have been together as a couple long enough that his Catholic mother has mostly given up on expecting him to do the social ritual hoops. Another friend of mine and her partner do a yearly retaking of vows, privately, because what matters to them is their personal connection, not the presentation and inclusion of their partnership in the flow of the community. It’s entirely possible to have a perfectly satisfying and healthy partnership without presenting it to the community according to that community’s rituals; at the same time, however, part of the community’s cohesion is built on things like recognition of families, acknowledgement of important social bonds, and so on, (of which the government’s engagement in intestate distribution of goods is merely a mercenary abstraction).

Different communities have different standards for what they will respect. This is not so much a problem in a largely homogenous communities, because people are aware of what standards of relationship are involved, or at least everyone does the social ritual of presenting their partnership to the community. When you start getting into mixed social groups with different standards, it gets much touchier. If people are willing to live and let live and respect other people’s marriages when they’re declared (a sort of common-law solution: people who say they’re married are married), that’d be great, but common-law marriage appears to be dying out. And there are people out there who actively do not recognise marriages that didn’t jump through their religious hoops, or which don’t conform to their prejudices, or whatever else; while these people may not like that I am married, or the gay couple I know vaguely are married, or whatever, they are denied the opportunity to claim my marriage isn’t real: the basic community standard for recognition of the marriage is the certificate filed in City Hall, and they can go look it up. This only works because there is a social standard that the certificate counts as sufficient, that this thing comprises the requisite social witness of the marriage.

I recognise marriages that do not happen to meet that standard. However, I have a reasonable expectation that J. Random Passerby will accept that a marriage is a marriage if the marriage certificate is filed. And this is, in fact, what I find to be the case; there will be comments like, “Well, it isn’t sufficient for a Catholic wedding” or what have you, but the marriage itself is acknowledged to exist. Except, of course, by jerks; I have encountered a few people who are sufficiently jerks to insist my marriage isn’t real because it doesn’t meet their standards. It’s good to know which people are comfortable ignoring the basic social politeness standards well in advance, I find – and while the basic social politeness standard is “A marriage registered at City Hall is a marriage”, no good can come of making no relationship able to meet that standard.

Which obligations does the community undertake when a couple marries, beyond than the ones which a “civil union” would cover?

It isn’t. It is a civil act. The religions horned their way into it because otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to make any money off of it.

Post cite or retract.

Nobody is obligated to give a civil union any consideration whatsoever. There is no social obligation of politeness or civility to a partnership recognised with a civil union. There is no social pressure to recognise that as a legitimate relationship. The concept was concocted to avoid the social obligation of considering a same-sex partnership real.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

My understanding is that the word “civil” in “civil union” refers to “civil law” (i.e., goverment law) as opposed to “religious law”. Therefore, if people are joined in a civil union, the goverment will consider them to be “next of kin” for laws such as inheriting from each other, or making medical decisions ofr each other when one is unable to do so.

If you are interested in some sort of legal guarantee that society will respect the relationship that you have with your spouse, I don’t know is such a system exists anywhere on earth at the present time, certainly not in most democratic places. People will respect the people and relationships that they want to respect. Peer pressure can help in this regard, but not any sort of law. (Well, I suppose if we would distinguish between feelings of respect/disrespect and acting on that respect/disrespect, then severe laws can affect the actions, but not the feelings.

The problem of granting legitimate government recognition of homosexual realtionships is not going to be solved by semantics. You can’t just wave a magic wand and say, “Marriages are now called civil unions, and everyone can apply,” because the root of the problem with getting recognition for SSM is that the majority of straight Americans do not want the government to recognize that homosexual relationships are the equal to heterosexual relationships. Even if they’re okay with granting some (or even all) of the rights inherent in the marriage contract to gay couples, they still are going to insist that there be some recognized difference between straight and gay couples. Changing what you call the relationship isn’t going to solve that problem.

Worse, if your ultimate goal is equality for gay relationships, I cannot think of a more counter-productive tack to take than trying to get the government out of marriage. The single most common argument against SSM is that it will “destroy marriage.” The OP here is playing right into these people’s hands. If we’re going to get gay marriage in this country, we have to convince the majority straight population that letting queers get hitched is going to have no effect on their own relationships, that letting gays get married is not a tectonic shift in the nature of matrimony in this country, but an addition so slight that it will be unnoticable to those not directly benefitting in it. If we start telling these people that we’re taking away the government recognition of their marriage, they will turn on us so fast it will make your head spin. Bush’s anti-marriage ammendment will pass in the twinkling of an eye, and the door on government recognition of gay relationships will be nailed shut for another sixty years, at least.

I have at no point been talking about any sort of legal guarantee. I have been talking about the fact that marriage – as marriage – is something which is part of the basic standards of politeness most people are taught, and most people who aren’t complete assholes respect.

It is to duck out of any obligation to that sort of civility that this “civil union” concept exists, because at some level, some people just twitch at the idea that a same-sex couple should get the respect of a marriage. Not attaching that sort of respect to marriage is not an option for people with this particular set of cultural expectations, but pulling something out of their legal ass that doesn’t have the same social treatment standards is.

I agree entirely. I do consider these suggestions to be an attack on marriage, and while I like to think I’m reasonably polite about it and do not let it sway my actual work of activism, anyone who thinks that is a good idea will never be my ally. At most, we may share a goal or two.

OK, I’ve said this before, and it matches the tripartite distinction that Sapo was making: marriage is thre different things: (a) a contract between two people, (b) a civil institution, and © a religious institution. And anyone who wants to seems to be free to play three-card monte with those terms, and invite us to guess which kind of “marriage” the pea is hidden under at this moment.

The reason that Keeve’s proposal, and all similar ones, will never fly, is that people have invested a great deal in what they mean by the term “marriage.” And Lil points against them are, I think, worth repeating: The whole idea behind coming up with the nonsense of “civil union” is that some people are so dog-in-the-manger-ish about their own private use of the term “marriage” that they will consent to “It walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, but it’s not our kind of duck, so we won’t accept it can be called a duck, and insist that the rest of the world term it an anseriform waterfowl – because only our kind of duck is a real duck.” This kind of mallard will fill more pages in any political-argument forum than almost any other.

The only real problem with the current system is that it is being hijacked into an exclusively religious definition by the so-called “social conservatives” (who are quite frankly no more “conservative” in the strict sense of the word than Al Sharpton is, preferring to substitute their own image of an idealized America where their prejudices are enforced by law for the free country that a conservative would choose to preserve).

For me, the key point is to establish a national policy whereby any two people not already otherwise contracted and of sufficient maturity may undertake to contract marriage with each other and have it fully recognized and portable. This includes gay marriage, and it includes substituting for the presumption that you have no common sense until you reach a magic birthday, at which time you magically become a mature adult, some means to test for maturity among the younger prospective contractors-of-marriage. It means eliminating the “yuck” factor from people’s judgments of other people’s marriages.

Then, eventually, we sit down and intelligently review what the polyamorists want to be able to contract – and, frankly, this gets more complex every time I encounter it. Is it a group marriage where Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice are all married, each one to the other three? Is it a sexually distinct group marriage in which each of the men is married to all the women but not to the other men, and likewise for each of the women? Is it a series of bipartite contracts in which Bob is married to Carol and Alice, but they are no married to each other, and Alice is married to Sam, whom neither Carol or Bob is, and Sam married to Ruthie, who wants nothing to do with the rest of the group but, being a bit kinky herself, is married to Heather? If each of these arrangements needs to have an individual contract rather than a one-size-fits-all marriage law, family law is going to end up a lucrative practice.

But, to revert to the OP – why should we surrender a perfectly valid word that has been doing duty in the language for hundreds of years to mean exactly what everyone understands it to mean – including polygamous and gay unions (look up “Boston marriage”) – because some small group of prejudiced people wants to lay claim to it as their exclusive possession?

If you want to say, “marriage as recognized by law should be a civil institution,” that’s fine. I think it’s silly for the religious among us to be required to contract marriage twice, à la France, and makes unnecessary extra work for the civic marriage-solemnizers to boot – but if you insist, I can live with that. But you are not surrendering the right to define our civic institutions to some fundayahoos who think they have God’s own authority to run things!

It would be very helpful if you’d give some sort of concrete example to illustrate what you mean so that I don’t have to keep on guessing.

But in the meanwhile, here’s another guess…

Suppose I’m making some sort of party or celebration, and I’m making up the invitation list. I think that your “respect” means that if I’m going to invite someone, respect demands that I also invite the person who the invitee is married to, but that I am not strictly obligated to invite a close friend if the relationship to the invitee is something other than marriage.

Thus, for example, if I invite my cousin, I have to invite the person to whom my cousin is married. But if they are merely living together, then I do not have to invite that other person.

Or, to use Polycarp’s duck metaphor: The word “married” is important, because if my cousin and the other person are in a relationship which they consider to be “marriage”, but I do not consider it to be a marriage, then I will (in good conscience) consider that invitation to be optional, and they will (in good conscience) consider that invitation to be obligatory, and if I choose not to invite that person, then they will feel insulted and I will feel innocent.

Am I right so far?

My point is that if the above is accurate, then my proposal really would not change anything, because the “basic standards of politeness” which Lilairen refers to actually demand that we consider the other person’s feelings, and not get hung up on semantics.

Your proposal utterly destroys the best lowest common denominator of establishing marriage that exists, thereby drastically reducing the social obligations for people to accept that marriages that don’t suit their particular prejudices are marriages.

And those people who are looking for an out will use that, and use it expansively: not merely will same-sex marriages get treated as nonentities, but it will become socially acceptable to treat any other marriage that someone wants to treat as not a real duck as a nonentity. Basically, it removes the social consequences for being a jerk, and produces no benefits whatsoever to counter the inevitable upswell of assholes that will follow.

I do wish political language were more straightforward sometimes, because I personally feel that I have a conservative position on marriage:

  • People will form partnerships, which are significant to the way they conduct their lives, and contain a great deal of personal investment. People can get touchy about their partnerships.
  • It is the nature of communities that they will have standards for what partnerships they will accept, and rituals for gaining that acceptance; those rituals are called “marriage”.
  • If significant numbers of people form partnerships that cannot pass through the standards of acceptance and want them accepted anyway, social turmoil results as people factionalise about which partnerships they accept.
  • If that factionalisation continues, the established marriage process will be threatened, because it will be perceived to not meet the needs of the population.

Where I go from there is “Thus, marriage must accomodate the partnerships that exist to prevent the undermining of the society”, and that is the basis of my activism. That’s not the stereotypical social conservative route, but I think the stereotypical social conservative route misses the whole ‘people can get touchy about their partnerships’ thing, not to mention how much cultural literature there is about demonstrating dedication to a loved one in the teeth of opposing forces …

In post #43, I asked Lilairen, What do you mean by “the social ritual”? and I did not receive any answer.

In post #47, I asked Lilairen, Which obligations does the community undertake when a couple marries, beyond than the ones which a “civil union” would cover? and I did not receive any answer.

In post #55, I asked Lilairen, It would be very helpful if you’d give some sort of concrete example to illustrate what you mean so that I don’t have to keep on guessing. and I did not receive any answer.

I give up. When you are ready to explain yourself more clearly, please do so. With luck, I will see it, and then I’ll continue this discussion. I’ve put more than my share of effort into this.

The part of your argument I don’t agree with is that unions will be looked down upon. I just don’t believe that. When a heterosexual man-woman couple form some sort of union then they’re hitched. Most people don’t judge them whether they’re unmarried and co-habitating or they have a civil union (hey, maybe they’re from Europe) or they were married in such-and-such church or they’re from some small third world jungle tribe where all they do is say “I wed thee, I wed thee, I wed thee” and jump over a stick. As long as it’s man-woman, it’s marriage, however they got there.

What people look down on are same sex unions and they’re going to do that whether it’s called marriage or not. In fact, Americans have shown they’re unwilling to let SS couples call it marriage. We’re not winning that battle.

But increasingly SS couples can get civil unions and I think this shows a civil union is the extent to which the government needs be involved in it. Once everyone has a civil union everyone will realize that’s pretty much all they ever had as far as the government is concerned and those screaming “but I’m special, I’m married!” will just look silly.

Marriage is the social ritual for presenting a partnership to the community. That is what it is, what it always has been, what it always will be.

Look: you are asking questions that cannot readily be answered. The only evidence I have is the society I live in, and I can’t package it up tidily and hand it to you. I have attempted to explain the social obligations I have seen play out in my surrouning society for my entire life, and it doesn’t lead itself to presenting “Well, for example, one’s next-door neighbours are supposed to” because that does not exist.

There are expectations for how one is obligated to treat a married couple in the society in which I live, standards of politeness and respect for the existence of that relationship. Those expectations do not hold for roommates, dating couples, long-term cohabiting couples, and so on, though some people may choose to extend them anyway.

Your example of the party invitation was of this type, though what I am speaking of is not limited to that.