Well, kind o’ funny. I like Raymond Chandler too (co-lapsed-religionist, apart from his fabulous style).
On the other hand, being an economist, my strong impulse is to say that prices and incomes can be used to explain what is happening, and religion is no exception. Other things may matter, but I need convincing.
picmr
Ah, I see - they’re bad because they don’t feed the need. Interesting.
Nowadays, though, from an economist’s point of view, wouldn’t the gay market be something a religion would desire? After all, double income/no kids, and the prevailing myth is that we’re all so much better off financially than breeders…
Esprix
Esprix:
What? Myth? You mean you’re not better off financially? Damn! Now I have to rethink my plans for a comfortable retirement.
Waste
Flick Lives!
'Cuz it’s FUN, silly! But biologists insist that all animals want to pass on their genetic material (which I think is odd, since they can’t comprehend the concept of DNA). Personally, I think animals just like to get it on. But the “pass on the genetic material” is the official line.
You haven’t gotten your 15 minutes of fame?!? Haven’t you read your own sig?!?!? Remember: Ask the Gay Guy?!?
Sheesh… ingrate…
And Chaim… I’ll head on over to GQ and see what happens with the new thread. Should be interesting.
SPOOFE wrote:
Sorry, I’m going to need a cite for that. I will concede that there exists a biological imperative to procreate, but there is evidence of individual consistent homosexual behavior among animals, not just “doing it for fun,” and your explanation of the “official line” doesn’t jive with that.
Esprix
I wanted to ask the same question that this thread asked, so I revived it instead of starting a totally new thread.
That said, I’m still unsatisfied with answers given. For example, sdimbert responded:
*I don’t have homosexual sex for the same reason that I don’t wear shatnez, eat shrimp or follow any other of Esprix’s “silly laws:”
Because God says so.
I am fully aware that this answer will be unsatisfying to 90% of the posters in this thread - but remember, it answers the OP’s question in the spirit in which it was asked.*
To which I would say:
So you blindly follow orders that make no sense and have no real meaning, just because this authority figure (even if the authority figure is God, Itself) says so. Does this God want mindless sheep for followers?
Let me turn the argument around for a moment; social values change. What was once considered good is now bad and vice-versa. Slavery, for example, was once considered an acceptable practice. The Torah and New Testament acknowledge it and give rules for its proper usage. That may have been fine some 2000 years ago, but today slavery is considered contemptable. Only those people of the most questionable moral character would use it. Social values CAN and DO change, even if they were once ordained by God.
Then turn to homosexuality (and the associated acts). They were once considered contemptable and specifically banned by God. If the attitude toward slavery can change, why can’t the attitude toward homosexuality also change?
**
Yes, if it is God.
Is that so hard to understand?
If God Himself (who, by definition, is infinitely more knowledgeable and powerful than I am) tells me to do something - I do it. No questions asked; no matter how silly it sounds.
**
No. You can certainly inquire as to the nature of the commandments, and the reasons for them, but in the end, you do it.
For example, I tell my four year old daughter not to play in the middle of the street. I might even tell her “Don’t play in the middle of the street, you might get hit by a car (God forbid).”
She might reason to herself “Well, if there are no cars coming, I can play…” and go into the street. Which, if she did, would earn her an afternoon punished in her room. In some respects, I do want my children to blindly obey as mindless sheep.
**
And any country is free to ban slavery. And if they do so, then the Jews in that area are forbidden to own slaves.
There’s a difference between forbidding the permitted and permitting the forbidden.
If there might be a reason to suspect, for example, that all chickens might no longer be kosher (for whatever reason) then one possible solution might be to forbid eating chicken. There is no reason, however, to permit eating a non-kosher bird.
Zev Steinhardt
Well, starvation, but…
Freyr,
If you start with the premise that there is a G-d who knows infinately more than you or I, and wants what’s good, then why wouldn’t you conclude that, if he tells you something, you should do it? I’m not commenting on the truth of the premises…if you don’t believe there is a G-d, or that he’s not good, or falliable, then, you won’t neccesarily come to the conclusion.
If a culture treats homosexuality as abnormal, then homosexuals in that society are more likely to pretend to be heterosexual, and this will result in some people procreating that normally would not. This gives that culture an advantage over competing cultures that think of homosexuality as normal. Even a small difference in population growth can have a major impact over dozens of generations. Because of this, religions that claim homosexuality to be a sin will become more powerful in the long run. It’s the same reason why almost every religion says that incest is bad, or that excrement is unclean - a brain infected with that set of memes will have an advantage over one without it.
I had a thought last night about almost this exact subject.
It occured to me that the only place I have seen homosexuality condemned was in the old testament.
I am laboring under the impression that something along the lines of “The old covenant is over, the new one is thus…”
was said by Jesus in the new testament. This is vauge, I admit, but I dont have a bible handy right now, but wasn’t this the reason that the blood sacrifices were supposed to stop? And that the new version of laws,i.e, “if you even think badly about your brother you are as guilty as if you kill him”, took the place of the stone tablet version.
I hope this is making sense, and I KNOW someone will come along to tell me if I’m wrong.
Anyway, my minor contribution,
for what its worth.
Religion is just a crude attempt to control breeding so it can cheapen labor and create wars at will. There was never any sense to any of it, especially the censorship part unless one realizes the purpose of religion. Religion is like the business plan to a factory of robots, if some of the robots will not breed, they must be labelled as defective.
Oh, thanks for opening my eyes, Brian. I simply must thank you for posting this important information and making this important contribution to the converstation. Now I know the real reason for religion. Thank you! :rolleyes:
Zev Steinhardt
Zev, the pleasure was mine.
To explain my position; the arguments people use against homosexuality (or homosexual acts) fall into 3 broad categories:
It’s icky. Prehaps so, but this is more of a personal opinion than a real argument against it. Everyone has different tastes. It’s not like roving bands of homosexuals are terrorizing the countryside, forcing men to have sex with them. If you find homosexual acts icky, don’t do them.
It’s un-natural. Studies done in the animal kingdom, especially primates in the wild, have shown homosexuality in many other species. Therefore, it’s not “un-natural.” It’s simply one part of the wide spectrum of sexual expression.
It’s against the Bible. Since the Bible is being used to criminalize homosexuals, I feel I have the rigth to question the motive behind that criminalization. Polycarp and many of the other Christians on the board have done a wonderful job of showing that the Bible is certainly open to a LOT of interpretion. There are vigorous arguments for both sides. I’ll accept (for the sake of arguement) that the Torah and New Testament do, indeed, condemn homosexual acts and this is the voice of God speaking. So it comes down to: WHY?? WHY is homosexuality (or homosexual acts) forbidden? What makes them so absolutely terrible that God specifically mentions them (both thru Leviticus and Paul)? As shown in this thread and other threads, homosexual acts don’t harm anyone, neither the practiioners nor people around them. If there’s no harm being done, why the vehemence against them. Leviticus recommends that the two men be put to death.
Ultimately, it comes down to two points:
If this is true, then the “It’s against the Bible” argument collapses. We can discard this old idea like we discarded the “flat earth as center of the universe” idea. It’s an old custom from an old time that has no relevence to modern society. Zev, this is what I was trying to say with my argument involving slavery. Slavery is a practice that has been discarded (and even reviled) in modern times, even tho in the distant past, it was common and accepted, it was seen as the natural order of things. Even tho it has God’s approval, we no longer practice it.
One last word. I know what I’m writing here borders on heresy (at least in the Judeo-Christian tradition). I’m raising these points not to insult anyone’s faith but to get an answer to a question. The GLBT community is constantly told they’re wrong “because God says so! It’s in the Bible!” I think I have a right to question that reasoning.
Well, Freyr, I have to concede the point here. If the Bible is completely man-made and God didn’t command this commandment, then sure, your point is valid. But, the question at hand is “Why is homosexuality considered a sin?” This question implies that the person you are asking it to holds of God’s commanding of it (otherwise, why ask?)
**
Get on line. I’d love to know the real reason behind the rules of kashrus, the ritual of the Red Cow, and many, many other commandments. God (for whatever reason) has chosen not to tell us. If you do get a direct communication from Him on the matter, please let me know.
I know you don’t want to hear “Because God said so,” but, ultimately, that is what is boils down to.
I’m not saying you don’t have a right to question the reasoning. Just be sure to let me know when you get an answer directly from the Source.
Zev Steinhardt
Why don’t you let us know when you get an answer from the Source corroberating your point of view.
Thus far, the only support that the Bible is the true word of the Christian God is… IN THE BIBLE. How convienient that it isn’t supposed to be questioned and thus it is to be taken on faith.
I wasn’t the one asking the question. I admitted I didn’t know the answer.
I’m content to let it be. Freyr was the one asking why.
Zev Steinhardt
**zev_steinhardt wrote:
If the Bible is completely man-made and God didn’t command this commandment, then sure, your point is valid. But, the question at hand is “Why is homosexuality considered a sin?” This question implies that the person you are asking it to holds of God’s commanding of it (otherwise, why ask?)**
A couple of points. 1) I do believe that parts of the Torah and the New Testament are “Voice of God” speaking. I also believe that the history and events portrayed are roughly parallel to what actually happened. That said: 2) I’m asking 'cause all too often, when homosexuality or homosexual acts are brought up, especially regarding secular legislation, “The Bible” & “God’s Word” is brought up, often within 5 mins. :rolleyes: Being as I’m also Wiccan, I’m using this as a testing ground for perfecting my arguments. 
Given what Captain Amazing brought up earlier, I think that (the J/C) God wouldn’t make up a rule/law without some sense behind it. Except as a social custom of 3000 years ago, the prohibition against homosexual acts doesn’t make sense, therefore, this isn’t one of His rules. It’s a man-made social custom of a long time ago.
If it IS one of His rules, then, as Polycarp is fond of saying He’s the Divine Weasal. Since I doubt any God could be that cruel or spiteful, I tend to go back to the “it’s a man-made custom” of 3000 years ago.
Freyr,
The thing is, how do you know the law doesn’t make sense, and you (and I) just don’t understand the logic behind it. Again, if we’re dealing with an omniscient G-d, then He knows stuff that we don’t, which means he might have a reason we haven’t figured out. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t stop trying, though…
Also, as a thorough supporter of SOCAS, the argument, “We should make this illegal because G-d said it was bad” tends to be a pretty bad argument, I’ve found.
**Captain Amazing wrote:
The thing is, how do you know the law doesn’t make sense, and you (and I) just don’t understand the logic behind it. Again, if we’re dealing with an omniscient G-d, then He knows stuff that we don’t, which means he might have a reason we haven’t figured out.**
This is almost too easy; if God is omniscient, why can’t He explain it in terms we’d understand?
What is it about two people of the same sex having sex together that is so terrible? I’ve racked my brains over this as have many other people and no one’s been able to come up with any answer. The closest to anything understandable is “it’s a pollution of your soul.” Putting on my Devil’s Advocate hat for a moment, but where exactly is this soul and exactly how is it polluted?
I’ll agree that there might be something that homosexual acts to that is “wrong” but there has to be some evidence for it. Otherwise, we’re simply speculating and might as well assume the moon is made of green cheese and angels dance on the heads of pins. But people who preform homosexual acts suffer no more and no less than any other part of the population.
The only logical way I can understand this is to assume that the rule regarding homosexual acts was not spoken by God, but was a social custom of the time created to insure the uniqueness the Tribes of Isreal. It was created and written by men for that time and for the social mores of that time. Here in the early 21st century, it has no relevence and should be discarded, especially by those who claim it is the “Word of God.”
Oh, a slight correction. Earlier, I said:
I also believe that the history and events portrayed are roughly parallel to what actually happened.
What I meant was; the events starting with Abraham forward. The early chapters of Genesis I consider to be mythology.