# Why is ignorance of age not an excuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677 "2010-05-07T20:44:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/421 "2010-05-19T19:27:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When I say that “fraud isn’t possible” for a child, I’m saying that children do not have the cognitive and emotional capability to form the requisite _mens rea_. They cannot understand what they are doing when it comes to sexual decisions and consequences. A toddler can steal my tobbasco sauce without understanding the concept of theft. But I still don’t have my damn hot sauce. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/422 "2010-05-19T20:05:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t give a rat’s ass about stranger hookups, nor do I want inflated penalties. I’m just saying I want the current penalties enforced and have no problem with strict liability. It’s more important to protect children than it is to prevent adults from having to pay the piper if they accidentally fuck them. Why shouldn’t a seventeen year old girl have sex? What vast psychological damage is going to arise from a _voluntary_ tryst with, say, a 27 year old man? (Who she thinks is like, soooo cute) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/423 "2010-05-19T20:15:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When I say that “fraud isn’t possible” for a child, I’m saying that children do not have the cognitive and emotional capability to form the requisite _mens rea_. They cannot understand what they are doing when it comes to sexual decisions and consequences. And I’m not going to argue that definition–HOWEVER, a successfully perpetrated fraud by a teenager (I refuse to use the term “children” here, and will be discussing the easily plausible scenario of a 17-yr-old in a bar) obviously removes the requisite _mens rea_ from an adult who has sex with said teenager. I also reject the premise that an adult having ostensibly consensual (as teenagers cannot give legal consent) sex with a teenager necessarily damages the teenager, ESPECIALLY in the case being argued here where said teenager is deliberately seeking out sexual partners. While I am willing to accept **QtM’s** assertion that it’s possible in the rare edge case for 11-yr-olds to look of legal age, I’m iffy about that being a cutoff. On the other hand, if there is provable intent to deceive on the part of a teenager above the age of 14 (arbitrary cutoff picked both for increasing difficulty in credibly falsified age and for it being the lower cutoff for Romeo and Juliet laws in my state IIRC) then that should be a valid, statutory affirmative defense on the part of a person who had sex with said teen. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/424 "2010-05-19T23:19:54Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Why shouldn’t a seventeen year old girl have sex? What vast psychological damage is going to arise from a _voluntary_ tryst with, say, a 27 year old man? (Who she thinks is like, soooo cute) She would be getting exploited by a scumbag. It’s really more the under 16 year olds I’m worried about, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/425 "2010-05-19T23:22:33Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > And I’m not going to argue that definition–HOWEVER, a successfully perpetrated fraud by a teenager (I refuse to use the term “children” here, and will be discussing the easily plausible scenario of a 17-yr-old in a bar) obviously removes the requisite _mens rea_ from an adult who has sex with said teenager. The _mens rea_ is in knowingly taking a risk that he is sticking his dick in a child. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/426 "2010-05-19T23:24:53Z")
OK, everyone seems to love the hypotheticals here; 16 year-old girl lives in a state where age of consent is 15; her family moves across state borders to a place where age of consent is 18; she has been having sex with her 17 year-old boyfriend for over a year now. So if they have sex in the original state, both are emotionally mature, cognitively developed adults, but if they have sex in the new place they are both “children” without the ability to understand anything emotional, cognitive, or otherwise? Are they both pedos now? I am not a teenage girl. But I know plenty who have cognitive abilities. I think there is evidence of teenage _chimps_ with more acknowledged cognitive ability than Dio will give human teens credit for. And for Crom’s sake, stop using the asinine emotional appeal of calling minors as old as 17 cognitively and emotionally incapable “children” while accepting “adults” as having none of those impairments. Hell, I’ve dated 34 year-old women that seem to lack emotional awareness. Where is your arbitrary cutoff line for the development of physical, emotional, AND cognitive maturity? And why do you seem to insist that anyone who finds a physically mature 15 year-old attractive is a filthy child-fucker in the making? I suspect you have issues that are clouding your judgment. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/427 "2010-05-19T23:29:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > She would be getting exploited by a scumbag. > It’s really more the under 16 year olds I’m worried about. All 27 year old males are scumbags? I knew _I_ was at the time (for the precise span of one year, not a day more or less), but I hadn’t realized it was a condition held by the entirety of my gender. Or are you just assering that 27 year old who try to sleep with women they believe to be 22 are scumbags? Or perhaps any 27 year old male who fails to hire a detective to investigate the woman first? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The _mens rea_ is in knowingly taking a risk that he is sticking his dick in a child. The only way to be **certain** is to spend at least ten years getting to know her first - and then it’s only the _delay_ that can give you confidence, not your familiarity with the woman. The really strange part here is that you still are claiming not to be opposed to casual consensual sex between 20 year olds. That’s like saying that you don’t mind when people walk across streets - but by god only criminal scumbags would ever walk on pavement or asphalt. You simply can’t have one without having the other. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/428 "2010-05-19T23:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > There was a very similar case to this in the St. Paul neighborhood where I used to run a couple of summer day camps. Similar ages. Some boys (9 or 10, I think) gang raped one of the boys’ little sisters in a vacant, neighborhood house. They were acting out stuff they’d seen in porno movies. Didn’t you just last page say that porn wasn’t harmful to kids? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/429 "2010-05-20T00:53:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Here in the UK, a 10 and 11 yr old have just been charged with raping an 8 yr old girl. By **Dio’s** reckoning, they shouldn’t be charged with anything, as they couldn’t possibly have known the consequences of what they had done. How would this sort of incident be dealt with in your country? That claim turned out to be bullshit ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/430 "2010-05-20T00:58:51Z")
I pretty much agree with Dio; in practice the age of consent laws are probably wrong… in practice I’ve only heard of them being applied in egregious cases of blatant paedophilia. Bill Wyman had the inestimable pleasure of bonking a 14 year old Mandy Smith and no one minded. Maybe this is different in the US. Probably is. Compare and contrast with our previous government’s new laws against “extreme” porn, which so far has got one guy sent to court for a cartoon of Tony the Tiger getting up to some tricks. No, I’m not making this up 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/431 "2010-05-20T01:12:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Didn’t you just last page say that porn wasn’t harmful to kids? It’s not. When did I say that it was? I was telling the facts of a particular case, not pronouncing any judgements about porn. If you think it’s proof that porn is bad for kids, that’s your conclusion, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/432 "2010-05-20T01:15:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > All 27 year old males are scumbags? All 27 year olds who fuck children are scumbags. > [@](#): > > The only way to be certain is to spend at least ten years getting to know her first This is bullshit. > [@](#): > > The really strange part here is that you still are claiming not to be opposed to casual consensual sex between 20 year olds. Could not possibly care any less. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/433 "2010-05-20T01:17:51Z")
I find it amusing that a 17YO, or even a 15YO for that matter, who’s got a convincing fake ID and is hanging out at bars is going to suffer great damage by fucking a 27YO. If the girl is damaged, I suspect it likely happened much earlier. The notion that a 15YO can’t be mature enough to understand what she’s doing is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/434 "2010-05-20T01:21:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The _mens rea_ is in knowingly taking a risk that he is sticking his dick in a child. I don’t think you should be debating this when you apparently don’t know what \*mens rea \*means. It’s impossible to have a criminal mindset if you are neither intending to commit nor aware that you are committing a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/435 "2010-05-20T01:24:08Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > OK, everyone seems to love the hypotheticals here; 16 year-old girl lives in a state where age of consent is 15; her family moves across state borders to a place where age of consent is 18; she has been having sex with her 17 year-old boyfriend for over a year now. So if they have sex in the original state, both are emotionally mature, cognitively developed adults, but if they have sex in the new place they are both “children” without the ability to understand anything emotional, cognitive, or otherwise? Are they both pedos now? > > I am not a teenage girl. But I know plenty who have cognitive abilities. I think there is evidence of teenage _chimps_ with more acknowledged cognitive ability than Dio will give human teens credit for. > > And for Crom’s sake, stop using the asinine emotional appeal of calling minors as old as 17 cognitively and emotionally incapable “children” while accepting “adults” as having none of those impairments. Hell, I’ve dated 34 year-old women that seem to lack emotional awareness. Where is your arbitrary cutoff line for the development of physical, emotional, AND cognitive maturity? And why do you seem to insist that anyone who finds a physically mature 15 year-old attractive is a filthy child-fucker in the making? I suspect you have issues that are clouding your judgment. It’s not an arbitrary line. It’s a biological fact that the areas of the human brain responsible for judgement, controlling impulsivity and understanding consequences are not fully mature until the age of 21 or 22. Just because the chick has tits doesn’t mean she has an adult brain. She doesn’t. That’s not an opinion, it’s a demonstrable, physiological fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/436 "2010-05-20T01:26:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I don’t think you should be debating this when you apparently don’t know what \*mens rea \*means. > > It’s impossible to have a criminal mindset if you are neither intending to commit nor aware that you are committing a crime. Or if you are a child incapable of understanding the consequences. It’s not a crime for a child to “seduce” an adult anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/437 "2010-05-20T01:28:00Z")
9 pages of this? does anyone else expect to see a news story with Dio getting off a plane with some underage girl and excuses of how he needed help “lifting his luggage” this debate seems to have been long over with, the only dissent being Dio. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/438 "2010-05-20T01:30:40Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > 9 pages of this? > > does anyone else expect to see a news story with Dio getting off a plane with some underage girl and excuses of how he needed help “lifting his luggage” I thought there was supposedly a warning about this kind of bullshit. I guarantee you, nothing like this will ever happen. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/439 "2010-05-20T01:40:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I thought there was supposedly a warning about this kind of bullshit. > > I guarantee you, nothing like this will ever happen. you have spent the better part of 9 pages insulting every single person who doesnt agree with your personal point of view, there is no debate here at all. just a ton of reasonable people and you. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/440 "2010-05-20T02:41:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Or if you are a child incapable of understanding the consequences. > > It’s not a crime for a child to “seduce” an adult anyway. That’s fine, no one’s saying it is. I note you conveniently ignored the relevant section of my posting. > [@me](#): > > I don’t think you should be debating this when you apparently don’t know what mens rea means. To amplify this: an adult sleeping with a person they fully and reasonably believe is over 18 completely lacks _mes rea_. Your contention that it’s impossible to be unwittingly deceived (“I am never wrong”) is of no relevance here as it is unsupported by any data. Your contention that IDs are invalid forms of age verification, when they are legally considered to be such, is also of no relevance here. Do you honestly believe that a teenager who has decided of their own free will to engage in sexual activities with people older than themself, and in fact is faking documentation for that express purpose, is going to be “damaged” by that sexual contact? No one is talking about any scenario where the teen is being coerced or forced–regardless of their inability to fully comprehend their own decision’s ramifications, they are still the ones making that decision and further making the decision to obstruct people of good intentions from finding out their age. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677.md?page=23)