# Why is ignorance of age not an excuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677 "2010-05-07T20:44:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/581 "2010-05-20T22:00:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the popint is that 10 years for something without mens rea seems a bit harsh. I mean there are even affirmative defenses to murder, why not statutory rape? But how many guys really get ten years when it’s like an 18 year old and a 17 year old? There already are Romeo and Juliet clauses in most states, it’s not like that kind of thing doesn’t get taken into conseration at all by the law, and prosecutorial and judicial discretion even more so. I remember seeing a case a little while ago where a kid (I think he was like 17) got a huge sentence for getting a blowjob from a 15 year old. Bill O’Reilly was all for it (probably because the kid was black), and that did seem outrageously excessive to me. The irony was that he would have gotten a much lighter penalty (I think it might have even been legal) if he’d had intercourse with her, but the state he was in had some back-assward sodomy law, so they threw the book at him. That’s a stupid ass law, a stupid ass prosecutor and a stupid ass judge, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/582 "2010-05-20T22:03:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. I have already said that _mens rea_ has no application to statutory rape. I was replying to a post that the _victim_ might be guilty of “entrapment.” No it doesn’t. The question is whether it should. The penalty for statutory rape is pretty severe for something that you didn’t mean to do and didn’t know you were doing while you were doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/583 "2010-05-20T22:04:26Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m beginning to get the distinct impression that \*\*Dio \*\*cannot deal rationally with any situation in which he can imagine one of his daughters. He’s come close to admitting that a few times. > > This and a few other statements he has made make this whole thread seem like the age-old cliche of “I am afraid of my girls meeting boys like I used to be”. If I see myself at the door, I’m going to kick my own ass. My ten year old started getting a chest a few months ago, and just last week I had to pick her up early from school because she was getting cramps. That means I’m going to have to buy a gun now (once I convince my wife to let me have one in the house). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/584 "2010-05-20T22:06:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No it doesn’t. The question is whether it should. The penalty for statutory rape is pretty severe for something that you didn’t mean to do and didn’t know you were doing while you were doing it. You knew there was a chance. It was an assumed risk. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/585 "2010-05-20T22:07:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Depends on the crime. If you kill somebody while driving drunk, it doesn’t matter what your intentions were. > > I’ve also already said that I think a public “sex offender” list is a bad idea. Frankly, I see the mens rea with drunk driving but its an interesting point. Drunk driving is an innately risky activity and you assume the risk of any harm you might commit when you drink and drive. Your point seems to be that having casual sex is a risky activity and you assume the legal risk of any harm you might cause by accidentally having sex with a minor when you have casual sex. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/586 "2010-05-20T22:08:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That wasn’t my question. My question was whether you think it’s plausible that an 11 year old could convince an adult male that she was also an adult and “seduce” him into having sex with her withjout ever having a clue that she was a pre-teen. > > Do you think this is a scenario that could actually happen in real life, yes or no? Absolutely, YES, in a number of scenarios. All it really requires is a male over 18 who is not particularly intellligent and an eleven year old who is smarter or at least more sexualized than him. The obvious would be a relationship that began on on-line: lonely introverted guy starts chatting with someone online, maybe she tells him she has a medical condition that makes her look younger, or maybe she went through puberty early and looks older than eleven. Children of poverty, street children, children who have lived in war zones, etc., may appear older than their age and they can easily seem more mature than an eleven year old. ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/587 "2010-05-20T22:08:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No it doesn’t. The question is whether it should. The penalty for statutory rape is pretty severe for something that you didn’t mean to do and didn’t know you were doing while you were doing it. If you know who you are having sex with, there should be no problem. Do you think having anonymous sex with young looking strangers is healthy for all concerned? When I see a hot body on a young person I think, that’s somebody’s child. Puts it all into perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/588 "2010-05-20T22:09:34Z")
That’s exactly my point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/589 "2010-05-20T22:09:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s been documented to happen at 7, so you’d be allowing the defense in the case of 9 year olds. Well they still have to convince a jury. Its an affirmative defense which means that they have to prove out their defense, they can’t simply say “I didn’t know and she is obviously post pubescent” ---
**Author:** ![Dante\_Fevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Dante\_Fevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante_Fevah)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/590 "2010-05-20T22:10:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If I see myself at the door, I’m going to kick my own ass. > > My ten year old started getting a chest a few months ago, and just last week I had to pick her up early from school because she was getting cramps. > > That means I’m going to have to buy a gun now (once I convince my wife to let me have one in the house). TMI ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/591 "2010-05-20T22:13:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You think it’s even theoretically possible for a 9 year old to plausibly pass as an adult? Why waste the court’s time on bullshit? Not these days… but it would have been pretty hard for a 13 year old to pass for an 18 year old when I was in high school and I just met on the other day. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/592 "2010-05-20T22:14:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > This isn’t just about adult males and teen girls. The opposite, I imagine, happens significantly more often (as teen males are both more interested in drinking and more interested in sex, as well as less picky about sex partners.) I don’t think that situation bothers anyone but the boy’s mother. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/593 "2010-05-20T22:14:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If I see myself at the door, I’m going to kick my own ass. > > My ten year old started getting a chest a few months ago, and just last week I had to pick her up early from school because she was getting cramps. > > That means I’m going to have to buy a gun now (once I convince my wife to let me have one in the house). No, you don’t. You just have to help your daughter develop enough self-respect not to have sex with every guy that asks. Seriously, the psycho-dad tactics do not work. They will only scare away all the nice young men and leave your daughter to dates the guys who don’t care if she has the “crazy dad” or worse see “crazy dad” as some sort of obstacle they have to triumph over. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/594 "2010-05-20T22:18:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Involuntary manslaughter can happen without any negligence at all. Statutory rape is an extremely easy crime to avoid. Guys don’t just slip and have their dicks fall into teenagers. You are basically elevating casual sex into an inherently risky activity. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/595 "2010-05-20T22:18:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Frankly, I see the mens rea with drunk driving but its an interesting point. Drunk driving is an innately risky activity and you assume the risk of any harm you might commit when you drink and drive. Your point seems to be that having casual sex is a risky activity and you assume the legal risk of any harm you might cause by accidentally having sex with a minor when you have casual sex. It’s the best argument **Dio** has in the entire thread, but the problem is, if one were arguing this rationally as opposed to I-need-a-gun-to-scare/shoot-the-twelve-year-olds-who-are-coming-for-my-eleven-year-old-daughter, then one would note that _not being legally drunk_ is a reasonable defense against drunk driving. Similarly, _not being negligent_ is a reasonable defense against negligently sleeping with minors by accident. Which would bring us to the debate about what reasonably constitutes non-negligence when trying to pick up some eighteen-year-old tail. **Dio** is aware of this, which is why is so vehemently makes assertions (not facts) about how cheking ID is not sufficient to prove non-negligence. The problem is he’s failed to state what _would_ be non-negligent - except when shooting himself in the foot. That is, he asserts that just talking to a young person is enough to know whether they’re young. He also asserts or implies that ‘getting to know’ a girl is sufficent, when he’s arguing that he’s not blanket-opposed to sex between non-geriatrics. The problem is that he doesn’t ever state exactly how _much_ talking is necessary to be certain. He probably refrains because he would paint himself into a corner; either the level of interaction will rule out casual consenting sex, or it will be less in terms of real evidence than the photo ID. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/596 "2010-05-20T22:19:02Z")
[quote=“Dante\_Fevah, post:587, topic:538677”] Do you think having anonymous sex with young looking strangers is healthy for all concerned? QUOTE] No, but just because something isn’t healthy doesn’t mean people should be arrested and put in jail for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/597 "2010-05-20T22:20:34Z")
Wow, so it really is more like, “The law says blahblahblah rapists blahblahblah children blahblahblah STOP LOOKING AT MY LITTLE GIRLS YOU BABY-RAPING PERVERT PEDOPHILES blahblahblah no cognitive or emotional ability until they’re old enough to enlist. Or later.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/598 "2010-05-20T22:22:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Aaand now we’re back to you saying that the act of having sex with somebody who looks less than forty is a criminal. No he is just saying that they are assuming the risk of damaging a minor by having sex with them (whether you knew it or not, you knew it was possible) so if you did cause that damage you go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. It sounds like Dio feels teh damage is so great that it is not worth reducign any deterrent effect by introducing defenses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/599 "2010-05-20T22:23:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > and when it does, I don’t care. Then what are we debating? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677/600 "2010-05-20T22:26:12Z")
[quote=“Diogenes\_the\_Cynic, post:581, topic:538677”] But how many guys really get ten years when it’s like an 18 year old and a 17 year old? [quote] There was that one 18 year old kid in florida. > [@](#): > > I remember seeing a case a little while ago where a kid (I think he was like 17) got a huge sentence for getting a blowjob from a 15 year old. Bill O’Reilly was all for it (probably because the kid was black), and that did seem outrageously excessive to me. yeah thats the one I was talking about. > [@](#): > > That’s a stupid ass law, a stupid ass prosecutor and a stupid ass judge, I agree. And they removed a jury’s ability to prevent the stupid result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ignorance-of-age-not-an-excuse/538677.md?page=31)