# Why is incest associated with poor white people, particularly in the Southern U.S.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603 "2011-04-07T23:36:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/81 "2013-12-19T18:55:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Geographically isolated groups intermarry to a higher percentage than groups with ease of travel. That’s a worldwide phenomenon. Most people are surprised to find that Finland is a maze of isolated villages and its population exhibits so many rare genetic diseases as a result that doctors go there to study ailments difficult to find elsewhere. > > I don’t know if Europeans make jokes about Finland, though. Groups that isolate themselves from the broader culture even though they live in its milieu also have higher intermarriage. The Amish in the US have become notorious for having much higher instances of genetic disorders than the broader German-American community. The Amish receive very few converts and almost all of them are descendants of German, Dutch, and Swiss refugees who arrived in North America hundreds of years ago and have spent the past 300 years boinking their second cousins \<3. Your typical German-American circa 1850 might have married a new immigrant from Germany, a French-Canadian, Irish-American, or really any random white person and nobody would really care. The Amish _did_ care and discouraged their followers from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/82 "2013-12-19T19:05:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > From the Online Etymology Dictionnary : > So while Christian indeed referred to anyone with a pulse back then, in this particular case it was to be understood in something of a “bless his little heart” sense. You know, “he might be a drooling half-blind dwarf with webbed toes, but he’s still a Christian” Good point. I think the origin of the term “cretin” came out of the same thought that leads people today to say things like “The disabled are people too!” Nowadays we prefer to speak of people or humans rather than assuming everyone is _Christian_, but the idea is the same - that we (the “normals”) are the same fundamentally as the disabled. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/83 "2013-12-19T19:11:27Z")
Here’s a summary of the prevalence of consanguineous marriages for various countries: > [@](#): > > Hong Kong 1.8 > Singapore 5.0 > Japan 4.8 > China 2.4 > Italy 0.5 > Mongolia 0.5 > Netherlands 0.2 > Norway 0.7 > Great Britain 0.3 > Belgium 1.0 > Canada 1.5 > Sweden 0.6 > Australia 0.3 > Czechoslovakia 0.2 > France 0.8 > Hungary 0.1 > Spain 4.1 > USA 0.2 > Uruguay 4.5 > Portugal 19.0 > Israel 1.5 > Kazakhstan 2.9 > Argentina 0.5 > Malaysia 7.6 > Érie (Republic of Ireland) 0.5 > Chile 1.3 > Croatia 0.1 > Kyrgyzstan 45.2 > Turkey 21.1 > Costa Rica 3.4 > Ecuador 6.3 > Mexico 1.3 > Bolivia 0.6 > Brazil 4.8 > Indonesia 17.8 > Iraq 33.0 > Tajikistan 42.8 > Uzbekistan 23.3 > Kuwait 39.9 > Philippines 0.4 > Cuba 0.8 > Peru 4.1 > Yemen 33.9 > Afghanistan 55.4 > Colombia 3.0 > Iran 32.2 > Jordan 39.7 > Morocco 19.9 > Pakistan 61.2 > Panama 1.7 > Puerto Rico 3.3 > Saudi Arabia 39.7 > UAE 36.0 > Venezuela 1.3 > Algeria 22.6 > Bahrain 44.4 > Oman 35.9 > Tunisia 26.9 > Bangladesh 10.5 > India 24.7 > Lebanon 25.1 > Egypt 28.9 > Honduras 3.4 > El Salvador 4.9 > Sri Lanka 21.5 > Qatar 44.5 > South Africa 2.8 > Tanzania 37.8 > Sudan 50.1 > Nigeria 51.2 > Burkina Faso 65.8 > Guinea 25.9 > **[inbreedingdpression.pdf](https://lesacreduprintemps19.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/inbreedingdpression.pdf)** > > 265.07 KB ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/84 "2013-12-19T19:21:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > A vote for “isolation” as the main cause. Humans seem to be wired to avoid close inbreeding, _unless there’s no one else_, in which case it’s better to inbreed than to leave no descendants… The [Westermarck effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect) is accepted generally as being one of the things that effectuates this. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > …I know this because I was about 9 - in 1984 - when the law was changed to allow first cousins to marry, amd my mother asked which of my cousins I fancied. I’m sure she intended it as a joke, but I was horrified enough - and sufficiently interested in the news - to remember it. Google is not helping me cite this… My only female first cousin is far younger than me and I must admit to being thoroughly disgusted by the idea of her in bed. Her in my lap is another story, but she’s now too big for that. One bonus of this is that I can help her get dressed for formal, fancy events because I can have my hands all over her without shaking or feeling horny. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/85 "2013-12-19T19:28:15Z")
I don’t think it is fair to call it a southern thing because some of the finest people I know have come from the south. But there does seem to be a sub culture that exists in the south of uneducated poor whites where incest is pretty common. I know of one case where a man had children by his daughters and then his grandchildren who were also his daughters and then his great grandchildren wo were also his daughters. The girls just stayed at home forever and the boys seemed to leave at about 16. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/86 "2013-12-19T19:45:40Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Nowadays we prefer to speak of people or humans… …or zombies. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/87 "2013-12-19T19:47:10Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > My family moved to a small MN town. We did a family tree project in Catholic elementary school - pretty much every one but us and another “immigrant” family were related if you went back more than a couple of generations by either blood or marriage. > > All of my siblings moved out - interestingly, the other “immigrant” family had a daughter that married into the community. The further you go back, the more likely you are to find a link. I’m a descendant of a Mayflower passenger, an early polygamous LDS (Mormon) bishop, and two of the founding families of a medium size US Midwestern town a few hours from Chicago. I’m probably related to dozens of people on this site. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/88 "2013-12-19T19:48:50Z")
Because prejudice against poor Southern whites is “okay”. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/89 "2013-12-19T21:49:08Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > The further you go back, the more likely you are to find a link. I’m a descendant of a Mayflower passenger, an early polygamous LDS (Mormon) bishop, and two of the founding families of a medium size US Midwestern town a few hours from Chicago. I’m probably related to dozens of people on this site. Hey coz … so what are you doing Saturday evening? 😛 Descended from Mayflower on my Dad’s side[so is mrAru, we figure we are cousins back in about 1820 the most recently] and I have tons of relatives that way, just way back. Mom was Amish, with their own version of inbreeding issues. At least with those two 2 family histories they married pretty nonconsanguinly. Actually, for about 8 years we had a friend who was also stationed on mrAru’s shore duty and one of his subs who was from Tennessee who really had the hots for one of his cousins and he had originally met her at a family reunion :smack: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/90 "2013-12-19T23:12:53Z")
A really awful incest case was just recently discovered in [Australia](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/12/australia-incest-case-shocks-country). ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/91 "2013-12-19T23:39:45Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > As a southerner who hasn’t porked any cousins (yet, our family reunion is in the summer), I’d like to point out that first cousin marriage is legal in [more](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cousin_marriage_map1.svg) northern states than southern ones. Well maybe, but this would seem to depend a lot on how you’re counting. 7 of the 11 states which were in the confederacy allow 1st cousin marriage. 13 of the remaining 39 states allow it. So that’s more but a much smaller percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/92 "2013-12-19T23:40:26Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I don’t think it is fair to call it a southern thing because some of the finest people I know have come from the south. But there does seem to be a sub culture that exists in the south of uneducated poor whites where incest is pretty common. I know of one case where a man had children by his daughters and then his grandchildren who were also his daughters and then his great grandchildren wo were also his daughters. The girls just stayed at home forever and the boys seemed to leave at about 16. Was this man’s name, [Craster](http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Craster)? My goodness! I have heard tales of first cousins marrying in my family a couple of generations ago, but my paternal great-grandfather stopped the practice and his word was law in those days. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/93 "2013-12-19T23:43:03Z")
I think that joking about incestual relationships is probably a worldwide phenomenon. I live in a fairly rural English county. Locally we make jokes about a small town, just over the border in the next county. “At most weddings there, everyone sits on the same side of the church.” “A virgin is a girl who can run faster than her uncle.” ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/94 "2013-12-20T09:58:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I don’t know if Europeans make jokes about Finland, though. From a Swedish point of view, no we don’t. Norway, on the other hand … 😃 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/95 "2013-12-20T13:33:46Z")
I’m going to suggest isolation as the cause. While initially, the obvious isolated areas were deep Appalachian valleys, over the centuries the south until recently stagnated while the north expanded with industrialization. Factories sprang up all over the north, new immigrants flooded in continuously, and there was population turnover. While the north was continuously attracting new people, the south was one of the places these people were from, leaving behind smaller groups who had to choose spouses from smaller pools of eligible. I suppose to some extent the same might apply to more remote northern villages, or villages that were created wholesale by one group during the immigration rush. But generally, I suspect the interbreeding meme applies to backwaters where not a lot of people come or go; or with large families, all most people do is go, so the pool gets progressively smaller. IIRC the degree of common genetics for first cousins is about 3%; hardly much risk of creating doubled-up bad genes. However, mix and match the same pool for centuries, so everyone is a cousin 10 ways through multiple unions, and you will find that you are creating a much higher risk of genetic problems. The Arabs do tend to marry cousins and second cousins, but really what you have are a number of “tribes” or clans - everyone in a tribe is related, going back generations, several ways; and tend to not cross-marry to other tribes, although it happens. This creates strong support bonds, in a place where the only people you can count on to defend you and your family (or support them in time of need) are your tribe. One article I read, for example, suggested that a lot of what we see in the Gaza as political beliefs and sectarian violence is actually tribe vs. tribe power struggles. The pharaohs of Egypt may have practiced incestuous marriages - the practical side of this, like the European model, was it kept the divine blood more closely limited, reduced the number of additional claimants to the throne, reduced the redistribution of the family wealth, etc. The pharaohs were not dummies though - they also had concubines or extra “wives”, and as often as not, the designated heir was from a secondary “wife”. The relatives simply could not claim to be relatives of the official “Queen” and thus their claims in any civil strife were more limited. Why white trash? Well, until the civil war, most slaves probably could not give a coherent and properly recognized family tree; they were also mixed and matched from far and wide without regard to niceties like introductions or matrimony - so when you’re starting with a blank slate in 1865, by 1950 odds are there’s not a lot of family overlap yet. Also, white society generally probably did not socialize enough to hear (or care about) any stories of who was married to their cousin. As for incest as in father-daughter or brother-sister; this is (from the news) a fairly common problem, especially when the regular social norms have broken down. This typically happens in the dregs, or in very isolated areas, outcast families, etc. where the rest of society does not visit or interact enough to see what’s going on and put a stop to it. But generally, it is always taboo. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/96 "2013-12-20T13:51:19Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I think that joking about incestual relationships is probably a worldwide phenomenon. > > I live in a fairly rural English county. Locally we make jokes about a small town, just over the border in the next county. > > “At most weddings there, everyone sits on the same side of the church.” > > “A virgin is a girl who can run faster than her uncle.” –unless the jokes involve sheep. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/97 "2013-12-20T17:53:36Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > –unless the jokes involve sheep. _Why do Scotsmen wear kilts? Sheep can hear a zipper at a hundred yards…_ Country bumpkins of whatever type have been the butt of jokes for centuries or millenia. The more identifiable (ethnic, accent, backwardness, dress funny, whatever) the more distinct and hence the more ridiculed for some trait or other. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/98 "2013-12-20T19:26:45Z")
> [@SmithCommaJohn](#): > > We’ve all heard the jokes, I’m sure. > > Southerners and poor “white trash” love to marry/sleep with close relatives. It’s always good for a cheap laugh. > > But how did this stereotype come about? Is/was there any factual basis for it? If so, why was it more common in those groups? Because it was first associated with the highly isolated people in the Appalachians and Ozarks. Isolation can breed (no pun intended) some too-close family relationships, inadvertent or not. It’s simply hard to find a mate that’s not related to you when you live in a small town deep in the mountains miles from the next one - sometimes you don’t even realize someone is your second cousin or whatever. It’s like the old famers who are so lonely and desperate that they screw their sheep myth. From there, it became associated with poor “white trash” in general. I have some family from W. Va. myself. I was looking at a family tree an aunt of mine made. I was amused to find her father’s side’s rather unique name a few generations back on her mother’s side too. Her response: “Well, this is West Va. after all.” P.S. Now I see someone else has given a similar answer already on this same thread. See what I mean? It’s hard to avoid incestuous relationships. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/99 "2013-12-21T03:38:21Z")
I hear a lot of incest occurs in isolated rural communities here in Trinidad, and it isn’t associated with poverty per se. I mean there are poor urban communities piled into apartment buildings subsidized by the government, but there is no talk about incest there. At the end of the day it is the isolation and lack of law enforcement that allows this abuse to thrive. Basically in isolated rural areas and farming communities there is very little law enforcement, it is a paradise for sexually abusive parents. Also the isolation keeps talk from spreading, in a more active area people would start talking about the weirdo who is too touchy with his teenage daughters. Or his daughters would go to the police, or someone else would call the police. But out in the country there are few cops, and what few are there are likely to be complicit in covering this crap up. I just don’t think it is poverty, it is the isolation. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603/100 "2013-12-21T05:01:48Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I wish I could find what the change was the 1980s then - I’m sure there was one. Totally off the top of my head I think it was to do with allowing step relatives to marry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-incest-associated-with-poor-white-people-particularly-in-the-southern-u-s/577603.md?page=6)