In England, consanguination–at least among cousins–is widespread among the very rich and the very poor. Only the middle class has a problem with it.
Are we looking at the same page? It doesn’t say what you quote for either state.
Legal as in “most states take a lot of time defining marriage laws and deciding just how closely related two people can be and still get married.”
A recent email exchange between me and some friends involved a reference to incest in Tennessee. The following ensued:
[quote=“KneadToKnow, post:44, topic:577603”]
[quote]
Friend J (another SC native)
Did y’all know that the area now known as WV used to be the part of VA in which they kept their crazy people? It’s true. Virginians built their prisons and asylums west of the mountains to keep the crazies at bay. Then when Lincoln needed an extra state for the Union Army, he annexed that bit of VA to be its own state. So WV is kind of America’s answer to Australia.
[/quote[/QUOTE]
I call BS on that. While I don’t know enough about the first part (built prisons west of the mountains), I’m pretty sure that the “Lincoln needed an extra state” part is BS - The way I learned it, and what makes the most sense, is that WV didn’t want to go along with VA’s seceding shenanigans. Lincoln I’m sure appreciated the extra state, but it wasn’t his doings as far as I know, Occam’s Razor and all that.
Knead, for failing to dispel ignorance when the opportunity presented itself, your Doper license is hereby revoked.
My family moved to a small MN town. We did a family tree project in Catholic elementary school - pretty much every one but us and another “immigrant” family were related if you went back more than a couple of generations by either blood or marriage.
All of my siblings moved out - interestingly, the other “immigrant” family had a daughter that married into the community.
I believe if you’ll examine the by-laws carefully, you’ll see that I’m only obliged to fight ignorance, not to dispel it. And for the record, I did call her account of the origin of West Virginia into question at a later time.
I was told in one of my classes that the isolation excuse also happened here in the Ozarks. Furthermore, I remember old timers quoting the Bible at me telling me it was okay. You know, Abraham married his half-sister, Isaac his cousin, etc.
Why need it be an excuse? What makes your incest taboo more rational or preferable than another culture’s?
It’s not that cousin marriage didn’t happen in the Deep South (although I personally have heard of no close cousin marriages in my extended family group in the last 30 years1), but I’m not sure it was much more common than in Northern communities, its just that Southern kinship groups tended to be so BIG and so ornately intermarried, that even with no actual inbreeding, the result could look like a bizarre tangled mess to outsiders.
Because people had large families (6-10 kids was not unusual in the rural South until about 40 or 50 years ago) and because people lived in such small towns, after a generation or two all the families in town would be closely intermarried with one another. This was exactly the situation in the small town that my maternal grandfather’s family came from – I like to joke that town only has about 5 last names in it, which is a little ridiculous but not that far from the truth. I have plenty of cousins in that town who are, for instance, third cousins to me one way, half-fourth cousins on another side, and my great-aunt’s stepdaughter’s second cousins through another side. That sort of thing.
I’ve explained this before, but it bears repeating. My great-grandfather had 19 children by two wives. Not only that, but his wives were cousins to each other. So their children were at once half-siblings AND second cousins!
It was also wasn’t uncommon to have what are called double first cousins. My mother has two, the children of her father’s brother and her mother’s sister (my grandfather and his brother married sisters). No actual inbreeding involved but an outsider without a good understanding of this tangled web might throw up his hands and declare that they were hopelessly inbred freaks.
I am honestly convinced that this is where the whole thing comes from. Not to say actual blood-kin cousin marriages didn’t happen, because they did from time to time, but from extensive genealogy research I can honestly say it wasn’t that common, at least in poor rural Mississippi. Upper-class Southerners seemed to marry first cousins more often, probably because they had a smaller pool of acceptable mates to choose from.
I remember listening to older relatives discussing this topic, because believe it or not ‘poor Southern white trash’ are very aware of what Yankees, outsiders, etc. say about them. My uncle (my aunt’s husband) pointed out that when he was a boy, he knew a man who married his first cousin, scandalizing the kinfolk, “but they had ten chirrens, all book-smart, and not a one of them babies was ever sick a day in they life.”
- My mother has a pair of cousins who’d been in love since they were children and eventually eloped. Their mothers flipped a shit and forced them to get divorced (they threatened to disown them, which is a terrible threat coming from a Southern mother). Neither ever married again, or even dated anyone else as far as I know, they’ve just spent the last 25-30 years yearning after each other. I think the whole situation is tragic and unnecessary; one set of cousins marrying each other is not gonna bring about the downfall of human civilization.
Actually it may be worth pointing out that in the particular case of first cousin marriages, this abhorrance is also mainly an American thing.
In Britain and most of Europe — quite apart from the tangled natural customs of Africa and the Middle East ( Especially Pakistan where it is almost mandatory, and to which fine country it has done no more harm than a host of other environmental patterns ) — first cousin marriage is not considered incestuous nor cause for alarm.
Famously Judaism permits uncle-niece marriages *, and whilst some jewish communities unfortunately suffer from specific hereditary diseases, I really really doubt that was ever a contributory factor.
- Dunno about aunt-nephew marriages; but the God of Abraham being fairly misogynistic, I have doubts. What was sauce for the goose was not always sauce for the gander.
True, but then there are more northern states than what are commonly considered southern states. Seven of the eleven states that formed the confederacy allow first cousin marriage. Only twelve of the other 39 states permit it.
I’ve mentioned before but will again that my grandfather’s grandmother was also his step-great-grandmother and also his step-great-great-grandmother. He had (half)first cousins who were also his (half)uncles and aunts. No actual inbreeding occurred.
What did happen was that in the post Depression, well over a century after these intricate intermarriages had begun, some cousins did marry. They weren’t first cousins- they probably were distant enough to marry legally in any state of the union- but because they were cousins several different ways it was the equivalent of marrying a much closer relative than 2nd or 3rd cousin. A rare lung ailment resurfaced and caused the deaths of some infants and children. After this you had to have a genealogy table before you could date anybody from the area. My mother and her sister were not allowed to date any boy who had one of about a half dozen surnames in his family as it was deemed “too risky”; both married men from other parts of the state in part because of the lack of kinship (though through genealogy I’ve found that my parents were something like 4th or 5th cousins- common ancestor in the early 18th century).
Ok, I was looking at the mobile site earlier and now that I’m at a computer I see that the site is laid out terribly and you’re reading the wrong states. The section you quote as Massachusetts is actually for Michigan, and the section attributed to Vermont is actually Washington. I’m not sure how you got that one because there is a whole section for another state, Virginia, between the two.
And the north had twice the population so there were probably twice as many people wanting to marry their cousins. (I have no idea why I’m arguing this, my first post was really just a joke)
No kidding. I’m descended from folks in Perho and it seems I’m related to everyone there…
Massachusetts law has an odd asymmetry. Buried in the two lists are:
However, a woman can apparently marry her husband’s father, and a man marry his son’s wife. I’ve asked at a few town halls why this is; no-one knew and most had never noticed it.
I have no idea if a woman can marry her wife’s mother, or a man his daughter’s husband.
My husband and I share some cousins. My great-uncle Eddie married his Aunt Barbara, and their 11 children are his first cousins and my first cousins once removed. The youngest of those children was also the best man at the wedding.
At least one person found this sufficiently confusing and upsetting to try to warn my mother about it before the wedding. Mom, who frequently gets confused about the location of her car keys and how her cell phone works, thankfully does not get confused about ancestry. She gently set her straight and sent her on her way. I think she had to use diagrams, though.
I really, really, really wanted to put “Cousin of the bride, cousin of the groom” on the wedding program beneath the name of the best man, just to mess with people. I was shouted down, though, and I decided it wasn’t the hill I wanted to die on. (I saved that for certain portions of the guest list.)
Great expression!
My grandfather married his first cousin..:eek:…first cousin by marriage. :whew:
Cite?
Cite?
For reference, Scotland allows cousin marriage; it’s slightly more complex in England, but cousin marriage is again allowed.
For the very poor, Alan Moore in an interview about his graphic novel From Hell. It’s not online and was in print over 20 years ago, so no clickable cite, sorry. He claimed that in working class Victorian England, father-daughter couplings were not only commonplace, but practically mandatory.
As for the very rich, I cite the wedding of Prince Charles and Lady Diana.