# Why is India lagging behind China? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446 "2011-09-24T10:56:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/43 "2011-09-26T07:25:02Z")
Traditionally, only countries with a vent for population growth have been able to succesfully pull out an industrialization process. For Europe it was Americas, South Africa, Australia and NZ. For the US, it was and still is the US. China is a unique social experimentation where you kill the population growth by regulation. It’s not over yet but it looks good so far. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/44 "2011-09-26T07:25:13Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The places where slavery was most rampant in America are economically suppressed compared to the rest of the country. I checked around, and found this link [UCLA - International Institute ..::.. Error](http://www.international.ucla.edu/cms/files/nathan_nunn.pdf) the correlation you speak of exists, but the paper also states - > [@](#): > > However, there is no evidence that this relationship is driven by large scale plantation slavery, or that the relationship works through slavery’s effect on economic inequality. Anyway, I’m amenable to the argument that the caste system caused massive inequality for roughly 16% of the population which had negative fallout from the caste system([cite for the percentage of ‘scheduled’ castes](http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/India_at_Glance/scst.aspx)), which would result in a worse initial position for them in terms of health/education and have some effect on economic growth for that population. Its overall effect is still limited though. > [@treis](#): > > The caste system is far more complex that simple racism, is still widely accepted as legitimate, and there are far more government programs aimed at different castes. > > The caste system is far more culturally and religiously tied into the Indian culture. Yes, racism was important, but the American experience isn’t markedly different because we aren’t racist. If we were still racist today, society would be pretty similar with the change that blacks would be even more segregated and held down. Compare that with Indian. A rejection of the caste system is a rejection of Hinduism and traditional Indian culture. > > In the caste system (keep in mind this is a broad generalization) there are many stratas and different classifications. Contrast that with racism in the U.S. where either you were black or not (another big generalization). So if you numbered the different castes (there are thousands) from 1 to whatever with #1 being the most privileged and whatever being the least, where is the line for discrimination? Does #1 discriminate against everyone else? What about everyone above #100 discriminating against those below? #500, #1000, #3000? > > That complication makes government programs that much more treacherous. Continuing with my examples above, if the government says everyone below caste #1253 gets government quotas and assistance, how do you think caste #1252 is going to feel? And if they make the line #1252 what about #1251. What you end up with is is a situation where groups are looking to protect or get special privileges. That turns them into one issue voters, and makes it a lot easier to be a corrupt politician. It’s hard enough for us to decide whether or not someone is black or not. Continuing the example, if someone is 1/4 from caste #256, 1/2 from caste #845, and 1/4 from caste #1102, is that person a member of a discriminated caste? You seem to be mistaken about any number of things here. Lets start with the easy stuff. Rejection of the caste system is not a rejection of Hinduism at all. Most Hindu scriptures pay little attention to the business of caste(which is called varna, is described as a classification of the work done by the person, and is non-hereditary). Also, you seem to think of the caste system as some sort of all pervasive rulebook that actively governs day-to-day actions and leads to rampant discrimination in society. Truth is, the only time caste enters into most people’s lives from a social perspective is at the time of marriage, and while this is considered legitimate by some, the caste system’s hold is reducing even here, especially in urban India. The ‘Indian experience’ won’t be markedly different either if you take away caste. Historically, only the untouchables(roughly 15-16% of the population) have suffered any significant negative discrimination due to the caste system. This is not accepted as legitimate today, although it continues in rural parts of the country in the poorest states. Politically, yes, recent affirmative action laws have made caste an issue, and caste does no doubt enter into electoral politics. This is unfortunate, but the single-issue voters that you claim are thankfully rare, only one state in India has a party in power that makes caste its primary plank. Also, the complications that you’re thinking of regarding determination of caste are quite unnecessary. India is by and large (and unfortunately, in my view) a patriarchal society. Father’s caste = your caste. As I said earlier though, unless you’re a ‘scheduled’ caste, this would make little difference. I could give you all of what you say though(hypothetically), and you would still not have addressed why the caste system should have a significant impact on the economy, given that the private sector, which is where most of the economic activity happens, is largely free of the trappings of caste. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/45 "2011-09-26T09:53:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Take the discussion of “intelligence” to another thread. > > Take accusations of racism to The BBQ Pit. > > **New Deal Democrat** , injecting one more claim of “racial superiority” into a thread is becoming your one trick pony, particularly when you rely on the fraudulent work of James Lynn. If you simply must go on about that topic, open your own thread; stop interrupting threads that have genuine discussions going. > > [/Moderating] \*\*tomndebb \*\*We’ve discussed this previously. The work of Richard Lynn & Tatu Vanhannen draws on over 100’s of psychometric researchers around the world. Their figures are consistent with TIMMS & PISA data. If you are going to accuse Lynn of fraud, you need to at least acknowledge that his (and Vanhannen’s) figures have [external validity](http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/Immigrant%20IQ) as measured on these tests. [https://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26018](https://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26018) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/46 "2011-09-26T13:41:22Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > \*\*tomndebb \*\*We’ve discussed this previously. The work of Richard Lynn & Tatu Vanhannen draws on over 100’s of psychometric researchers around the world. Their figures are consistent with TIMMS & PISA data. If you are going to accuse Lynn of fraud, you need to at least acknowledge that his (and Vanhannen’s) figures have [external validity](http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/Immigrant%20IQ) as measured on these tests. > > [https://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26018](https://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26018) The only thing that I “have” to acknowledge is that Lynn felt free to include a lot of spurious information from outdated tests and test of groups far too small to be significant. That he might have lucked into some information that was consistent with other reports does not mitigate the fraudulence of the stuff he did include. Beyond that, this is off topic for this thread, so drop it, here. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/47 "2011-09-26T13:57:05Z")
I suspect it’s mostly the caste-system issue. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/48 "2011-09-26T14:02:33Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Actually, I’m not sure where you are getting this from. I’m not denying that caste is a moral/social problem in India (although in urban India you may be hard pressed to notice it. I don’t know my own caste for example) but on what do you base your comments on its economic impact? Racism is/was a huge problem in the US from a moral and social standpoint, but I’m unaware of anybody pointing to it being a factor in the US’ economic performance. [Even at the time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impending_Crisis_of_the_South), people who were willing to look the facts in the face recognized that slavery was an economic dead weight. A caste system is basically slavery-lite in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/49 "2011-09-26T14:23:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [Even at the time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impending_Crisis_of_the_South), people who were willing to look the facts in the face recognized that slavery was an economic dead weight. A caste system is basically slavery-lite in that regard. Have you actually been to India? It’s not “slavery-lite” in any sense of the word. It’s more like tribalism or clan-ism, and a relatively weak form of it at that, especially, as has been noted, in urban areas. There are thousands of castes all of whose specific relative status is unclear. It doesn’t work anything like race-based slavery does. Speaking from experience, roughly half the servants/retainers in any household will be _of the same caste_ as the members of the household and they will be in positions that are economically and socially more or less equal to those servants/retainers of lower caste. The big difference will be in which parts of the house they will be allowed to eat and sleep and whom they will marry. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/50 "2011-09-26T14:34:12Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I suspect it’s mostly the caste-system issue. What do you base this suspicion on? > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [Even at the time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impending_Crisis_of_the_South), people who were willing to look the facts in the face recognized that slavery was an economic dead weight. A caste system is basically slavery-lite in that regard. It would be great if you could cite something more definitive in terms of the economic impact of slavery. I’m somewhat surprised that no serious studies seem to have been done on this issue(it could be that I can’t find them). The slavery issue might be something of a hijack though. Feel free to ignore it. As to India - I see no reason why the caste system, despicable social practice though it may have been, should significantly impact economic performance. The major impact it would have would be to leave a segment of the population impoverished, unhealthy, and illiterate, but then many more people in the population at large suffered the same problems thanks to centuries of colonial rule and fifty years of bad government policy, just without the added social stigma. So again, how would the caste system have a significant economic impact? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/51 "2011-09-26T14:45:07Z")
The caste system doesn’t similarly retard economic development and industrialization, though. The people on the bottom rungs of the ladder are getting paid, even if they have little social mobility. The answer to the question has nothing to do with caste. China’s growth has essentially excluded 90% of the country - peasant farmers - just as India’s has. **bldysabba** covered it pretty well; it’s a combination of a half-century flirtation with socialism, and being a democracy. American schools teach students that capitalism goes best with democracy. That’s nonsense. Capitalism did best with a constitutional monarchy; the US has never been as rich as the British Empire once was. The problem for India is that never quite getting to communism meant never making a clean break from socialism. Protectionism and strange tax laws are _still_ retarding growth (the one thing **Qin** got right). Being a democracy, India can’t do some of the things China does to promote domestic growth, like currency fiddling. It can get away with doing some similar things- like the 120% import duty on imported vehicles, for example- but in general, the Chinese government is just better equipped to do many things. Perhaps one of the most important things it can do is limit brain drain. There are [50,000 Indian-born medical doctors practicing medicine in the US](http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/Regional_Health_Forum_Volume_10_No_1_05-Migration_of_Health_Workforce.pdf). About 60% of Indian-trained physicians will emigrate to the West or one of the Gulf states at some point in their careers. China also suffers from brain drain, but China’s brain drain is less damaging. Most Chinese leave prior to completing undergraduate programs; most Indian emigrants leave after completing \*post-\*graduate study. So India is not only losing its best and brightest, it’s losing them after paying to educate them. Another factor is that most Chinese _couldn’t_ leave prior to 1978, when the “open door” policy was implemented. Indians have always been able to leave, and have always done so (my parents, Indian-trained medical doctors, left in 1972 for the UK). Ironincally, racism in Britain served to protect the Indian economy, to a degree- any Indian who attended school in the UK before 1960 would _never_ have gone back to the UK- and in any event every Western state pursued fairly strict racial immigration quotas until the 60s. Perhaps most strange of all is that steady Indian growth in the face of the global recession is [luring many Indian expatriates home](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104252712), which bodes very well for the future (not so well for healthcare costs in the West). I doubt it’s a long term trend, but even a 5% increase in the rate of return would significantly benefit eastern economies in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/52 "2011-09-26T15:11:08Z")
India’s rather late industrial expansion also means that it has yet to exploit its enormous untapped resources. For example, India has huge reserves of the element thorium-which can be used to fuel nuclear power plants. This will put India in a good position when it developes its electric grid. So India may well surpass China in the coming years. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/53 "2011-09-26T16:14:23Z")
The overwhelming belief from my Emerging Markets equity managers is the bureaucracy created by having a democratically-elected government. The checks and balances in place in India prevent India from getting things done quickly. This is obviously something we see in the US as well. India knows what it needs to do, but political roadblocks stop these things from happening, or at least slow them down. China’s totalitarianism allows it to move quickly, without regard for the well-being of its citizens. To clarify, this is not my answer to the question, but the opinion of investment managers who invest in these countries. That said, many do believe India will grow and create wealth, but at a slower pace than China. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/54 "2011-09-26T16:29:28Z")
It is true that India has a huge problem with petty corruption. China is developing such a problem itself, but China also occasionally conducts summary executions to make examples of such people. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/55 "2011-09-26T16:46:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It is true that India has a huge problem with petty corruption. China is developing such a problem itself, but China also occasionally conducts summary executions to make examples of such people. Actually, from what I know, China has a fairly huge problem with corruption as well. The difference is that India’s much noisier media and competitive political environment leads to higher _perceived_ corruption since a lot more instances come to light. The biggest problem with India’s brand of corruption is that Indian bureaucrats and politicians will accept bribes and then not deliver on what they promise because of the limitations of the political system. OTOH in China the perception is that while corruption may be an added cost of doing business, at least business gets done! Not sure which approach to corruption is more damaging in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/56 "2011-09-26T16:51:27Z")
A related issue is intellectual property. India is presumably willing to enforce intellectual property rights of investors; China thus far has not been. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/57 "2011-09-26T17:34:27Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > You seem to be mistaken about any number of things here. Lets start with the easy stuff. Rejection of the caste system is not a rejection of Hinduism at all. Hinduism is an infinitely flexible system, but caste is tied up with Hinduism in a way that was never true with slavery and Christianity. So yeah, while you can be Hindu and not believe in the caste system, it’s difficult to see how you could believe in the caste system and not Hinduism. For at least a large segment of Hindus being born in the lower castes is punishment for deeds in a prior life. Rejecting that goes at the core of the rebirth cycle and Hinduism. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Also, you seem to think of the caste system as some sort of all pervasive rulebook that actively governs day-to-day actions and leads to rampant discrimination in society. > > Truth is, the only time caste enters into most people’s lives from a social perspective is at the time of marriage, and while this is considered legitimate by some, the caste system’s hold is reducing even here, especially in urban India. > The ‘Indian experience’ won’t be markedly different either if you take away caste. That’s not true at all. Your caste historically determined your employment, standing in Hinduism, and access to political power. Those effects linger today, and your station in life today is affected by what caste you are far greater than being black in America. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Historically, only the untouchables(roughly 15-16% of the population) have suffered any significant negative discrimination due to the caste system. This is not accepted as legitimate today, although it continues in rural parts of the country in the poorest states. Again, it depends what you mean by significant. Political power, economic power, military power, and religious power were reserved for specific castes. If I wanted to be a trader, but couldn’t because I was a Brahman, was I discriminated against? I couldn’t pursue my chosen profession, but I had access to a certain type of power. It’s not an black/white issue like racism was/is in America. There are infinite shades of gray. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Politically, yes, recent affirmative action laws have made caste an issue, and caste does no doubt enter into electoral politics. This is unfortunate, but the single-issue voters that you claim are thankfully rare, only one state in India has a party in power that makes caste its primary plank. Also, the complications that you’re thinking of regarding determination of caste are quite unnecessary. India is by and large (and unfortunately, in my view) a patriarchal society. Father’s caste = your caste. As I said earlier though, unless you’re a ‘scheduled’ caste, this would make little difference. Children produced out of intercaste marriages are not treated the same as those within castes. A high caste father and a scheduled caste mother does not make you high caste. > [@bldysabba](#): > > I could give you all of what you say though(hypothetically), and you would still not have addressed why the caste system should have a significant impact on the economy, given that the private sector, which is where most of the economic activity happens, is largely free of the trappings of caste. Come on, that’s just ridiculous. The people cleaning toilets in train stations aren’t high castes and the guys writing software aren’t scheduled castes. Even if I give you the idea that no one considers caste anymore in economic decisions the inequalities linger. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/58 "2011-09-26T17:49:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > So yeah, while you can be Hindu and not believe in the caste system, it’s difficult to see how you could believe in the caste system and not Hinduism. There are Islamic and Christian communities in South Asia that preserve the caste system. I think most Muslims and Christians would consider this as antithetical to Islam and Christianity, but those people certainly don’t consider themselves as being Hindu. > [@](#): > > Rejecting that goes at the core of the rebirth cycle and Hinduism. Hinduism does not require belief in rebirth. Hinduism has no mandatory dogma. I know plenty of people (myself included) who don’t believe in souls or rebirth or the after life who are perfectly comfortable calling themselves Hindus. > [@](#): > > That’s not true at all. Your caste historically determined your employment, standing in Hinduism, and access to political power. Well, both of you are right. _Originally_, _varna_ was a mere description of your occupation. But, as the caste system developed, the _jati_ you were born into determined your hereditary occupation. The “four-colour” varna categories (priest-warrior-artisan-peasant) are irrelevant to the modern caste system. > [@](#): > > The people cleaning toilets in train stations aren’t high castes and the guys writing software aren’t scheduled castes. The first part of the statement is almost certainly true. The second part isn’t as certain. There are plenty of low caste software engineers. There are also plenty of low caste doctors and other kinds of engineers. If for no other reason than government reservations. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/59 "2011-09-26T18:09:59Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Actually, from what I know, China has a fairly huge problem with corruption as well. The difference is that India’s much noisier media and competitive political environment leads to higher _perceived_ corruption since a lot more instances come to light. The biggest problem with India’s brand of corruption is that Indian bureaucrats and politicians will accept bribes and then not deliver on what they promise because of the limitations of the political system. OTOH in China the perception is that while corruption may be an added cost of doing business, at least business gets done! Not sure which approach to corruption is more damaging in the long run. Yes-the Chinese practice “clean” graft-an honest politician is one who, once bought stays bought. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/60 "2011-09-26T19:20:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Hinduism is an infinitely flexible system, but caste is tied up with Hinduism in a way that was never true with slavery and Christianity. So yeah, while you can be Hindu and not believe in the caste system, it’s difficult to see how you could believe in the caste system and not Hinduism. For at least a large segment of Hindus being born in the lower castes is punishment for deeds in a prior life. Rejecting that goes at the core of the rebirth cycle and Hinduism. As **Acsenray** has pointed out, you definitely can believe in the caste system and not in Hinduism. Only today I read about Muslim communities in the floods in Pakistan that refuse to occupy the same relief shelters because they’re from different castes. The caste system, especially its hereditary variety, is an almost entirely cultural phenomenon much more akin to nepotism than something religiously sanctioned. Has it acquired religious trappings over time and used religion to reinforce its position? Sure. Is it inextricable from Hinduism? Not at all. In fact, and only since you’ve brought it up, I would argue that there is more sanction for slavery in the Bible than there is for the caste system in Hindu scriptures. > [@](#): > > That’s not true at all. Your caste historically determined your employment, standing in Hinduism, and access to political power. Those effects linger today, and your station in life today is affected by what caste you are far greater than being black in America. > Again, it depends what you mean by significant. Political power, economic power, military power, and religious power were reserved for specific castes. If I wanted to be a trader, but couldn’t because I was a Brahman, was I discriminated against? I couldn’t pursue my chosen profession, but I had access to a certain type of power. It’s not an black/white issue like racism was/is in America. There are infinite shades of gray. While you claim to talk about infinite shades of gray, you tend to take a very simplistic view of the situation at hand. That of caste as the be all and end all. It’s not an uncommon viewpoint, just an incorrect one. It is most correct(but still not absolute) for the castes at the ends of the spectrum - the untouchables and to a lesser extent the Brahmins. If you’re interested in finding out more, one of the most authoritative writers is G.S Ghurye whose book “Caste and Race in India” has run to five or six editions IIRC. Here, from an article in the American Sociological Journal([link)](http://home.uchicago.edu/~aabbott/barbpapers/barbghur.pdf), is a rough summing up of his views on a complex subject - > [@](#): > > “… Thus was diffusionism coupled with a new view that caste endogamy was ideologically important but practically difficult. Intermarriage was perpetually creating new groups, which then had to be rationalized and systematized by Brahmanic intellectuals, even while the exigencies of material life—occupation, landowning, trades—steadily pressed against any limited or fixed notion of an occupational rationalization, even for Brahmanical writers. Ghurye’s view of caste was thus inevitably dynamic and rejected the deep, almost primeval stability sought by—indeed assumed by—many of the racial and occupational theories” The latter two types of theories - racial and occupational(occupational being the one you hold) were largely proposed by British sociologists, and because they were the early and predominant source of information about India to the west, these theories passed into the the domain of ‘common knowledge’ to the extent that many texts still hold to the occupational theory (the racial one being unfashionable) > [@](#): > > Children produced out of intercaste marriages are not treated the same as those within castes. A high caste father and a scheduled caste mother does not make you high caste. It does indeed make you high caste. In fact, poor Brahmins were known to sell their marital services in this fashion. > [@](#): > > Come on, that’s just ridiculous. The people cleaning toilets in train stations aren’t high castes and the guys writing software aren’t scheduled castes. Even if I give you the idea that no one considers caste anymore in economic decisions the inequalities linger. For one, Acsenray is again correct. There definitely are scheduled caste software engineers, and in the southern states they probably outnumber the upper caste software engineers. For another, _How does it matter from an economic standpoint?_ Someone has to clean toilets, and someone has to code software. Morally or socially speaking, I wouldn’t want the jobs to be hereditary, but so long as they get done, how does the GDP get affected? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/61 "2011-09-26T19:28:08Z")
Well, from an efficiency standpoint, it’s much better to allocate manpower based on inclination and ability than on an essentially randomly assigned basis. In other words, people who code software because they thought they’d enjoy it and went to school for computer programming are, _ceteris paribus_, likely to be much better at it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446/62 "2011-09-26T19:32:22Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > \*\*India \*\*wasted years pursuing socialism and economic protectionism? Like Bhopal. How open can you get? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-india-lagging-behind-china/597446.md?page=4)