# Why is Israel rich and Palestine poor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629 "2012-12-10T18:58:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/181 "2013-03-31T19:01:07Z")
[nm] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/182 "2013-04-01T13:53:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Eh? I know it’s just Wikipedia, but they note, “Australia - Section 116 of the Constitution provides: The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.” Sounds rather secular overall. Where’s the state religion you see? What’s Israel’s “state religion”? You may be surprised by the answer. 😉 In point of fact, Muslims and Christians enjoy full religious freedoms in Israel, which has (for better or worse) adopted the pre-existing Turkish “millet” system, by which each religion is given self-governance rights. In any event, the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is a very typical ethno-nationalist one. It isn’t per se about “religion”. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/184 "2018-01-15T17:01:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I wouldn’t know for Palestine specifically, but your perception of Arab women child bearing is completely off-base. Birth rates have collapsed in the Arab world, and it isn’t a recent phenomenon. You should expect an Arab woman to bear maybe 2.5 children or somesuch nowadays with countries where it might fall below generation renewment rate (2.1) in the near future (or maybe already, I don’t keep close tabs on that). > > The idea of Arab women having lots of children is about as outdated as the idea of Irish women doing the same. Israel is, fairly unusually, one of the few countries where fertility rates are rising, driven by the Ultra-Orthodox. Jewish fertility is higher than Arab fertility within Israel proper, and it’s also higher than Arab fertility within the WB. (Jewish women in the WB have fertility rates equivalent to Afghanistan, last I checked). That being said, there are some Arab countries (Iraq and to a lesser extent Syria) where fertility rates are higher than you suggest (3-4 children range), but of course those are the highest rates and 6+ in any case is a big exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/185 "2018-01-15T17:02:45Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As already said, and I think this is the key, Israel from its modern birth was a European culture with European technology, education and expectations, unlike its neighbors and the Palestinian Arabs themselves. It’s a little like asking (although of course the gap between was far greater) why the English colonists in America did better than the American Indians, or the colonists in Australia did better than the aboriginals. The _founding_ Jewish population of Israel was mostly European, but they got big waves of immigration from non-European, Middle Eastern Jewish diaspora in the 1950s and 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/186 "2018-01-15T18:30:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. It’s why most of Africa and South America is poor, too. Terrorist leaders do not make good leaders of nations. It is perhaps noteworthy that African nations that got over the bad part and finally instituted rule of law, democracy, and the like have seen rather remarkable increases in GDP. Namibia saw huge development after independence. Botswana was once the poorest country on earth and is now way, way above the African mean. Ghana has done pretty well, way better than its neighbors. What all these countries have in common are stable, rule-of-law respecting, relatively honest government. Well, Namibia is still working on it, but it’s way better than it used to be, obviously. Any country can be reasonably successful with such a government. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/187 "2018-01-15T20:35:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. It’s why most of Africa and South America is poor, too. Terrorist leaders do not make good leaders of nations. > . The USA and the ISrael did just fine with Terrorist leaders… but maybe they are not the right skin color to fit your deep "analysis. " ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/188 "2018-01-15T20:45:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is perhaps noteworthy that African nations that got over the bad part and finally instituted rule of law, democracy, and the like have seen rather remarkable increases in GDP. Namibia saw huge development after independence. Botswana was once the poorest country on earth and is now way, way above the African mean. Ghana has done pretty well, way better than its neighbors. What all these countries have in common are stable, rule-of-law respecting, relatively honest government. Well, Namibia is still working on it, but it’s way better than it used to be, obviously. > > Any country can be reasonably successful with such a government. A serious analysis of the development of the effective economic growth will look at the development of the stable institutional structures and ones that have a degree of the corrective feedback to allow a balancing of the interests. “Terrorist leaders” is a stupid non analysis - the performance of the South Africa under the first presidencies post-apartheid was very good - as the institutions were adopted and adapted well. The comparative development of the various African countries following the independence has been in the serious economic study examining the internal frameworks. The bad performances are also exmainable in the framework of the hand-over of the power and the degree to which the power excercised was extractive and if there were local domestic economic interests with an interest in the economic investment versus the rent extractions. The case of the Cote d’Ivoire contre the Guineau for example - the bad performance for the last or a Nigeria has not one thing to do with “terrorists” leaders since there is no case of revolutionary struggle for the decolonization but the bad incentives in the economic order. The CdI on the other hand had the positive economic system for the interest in the productive reinvestment. Botswana is a similar case. Of course for the Israel, the human capital transfer of a large component of the population with both a certain degree of the economic wealth capital and connectoins as well as the human capital and networks to well put into work the access to the investment capital networks well developed and accessible via the ethnic routes in a very time tested fashion for the case of immigration, this is a very powerful boost. It is of course nonsense to compare this to populations under the military occupation and subject to the expropriation or the security risk - it is like comparing the ability of the coloured south africa to accumulate capital with the English south african immigrant… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/189 "2018-01-15T20:48:39Z")
oh shit it is a zombie and I did not notice… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/190 "2018-01-15T22:27:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is perhaps noteworthy that African nations that got over the bad part and finally instituted rule of law, democracy, and the like have seen rather remarkable increases in GDP. Namibia saw huge development after independence. Botswana was once the poorest country on earth and is now way, way above the African mean. Ghana has done pretty well, way better than its neighbors. What all these countries have in common are stable, rule-of-law respecting, relatively honest government. Well, Namibia is still working on it, but it’s way better than it used to be, obviously. > > Any country can be reasonably successful with such a government. Yes, altho natural resources and such really help. Note that Israel has few, however. But yeah, if Palestine had decent leaders it wouldnt be in such a bad state. iT’s not the people, it’s the leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/191 "2018-01-15T22:51:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, altho natural resources and such really help. Note that Israel has few, however. Interestingly, that may not be the case any more … very recent discoveries of natural gas may well make Israel relatively “resource-rich”. Though, obviously, that has had little impact yet. > **[Energy Minister: Natural gas can transform Israel’s geopolitical status](https://www.jpost.com/Business-and-Innovation/Energy-Minister-Natural-gas-can-transform-Israels-geopolitical-status-515293)** ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/192 "2018-01-20T18:41:17Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > All of the above. Except to say re: 4). It’s not that Arabs are lazy but that Israelis have more of an entrepreneurial culture. Culture as in Democracy and better leadership for sure. And yes better entrepreneurial culture. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/193 "2018-01-20T22:35:09Z")
Compared to Western Europe, Israel is hardly rich: > **[List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita)** > > A country's gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita is the PPP value of all final goods and services produced within an economy in a given year, divided by the average (or mid-year) population for the same year. This is similar to nominal GDP per capita, but adjusted for the cost of living in each country. > In 2019, the estimated average GDP per capita (PPP) of all of the countries of the world was Int$ 18,381.\[a\] For rankings regarding wealth, see list of co... Maybe someone will say that the higher effective per capita purchasing power in dozens of other countries is accounted for by low income of Israeli non-Jews. But other countries also have minorities with lower income that would need to be taken into account. And the Jewish-only income of Israel would still be significantly less than that of everyone in Germany, Australia, or Taiwan. So I’d reframe this as to why Israel is on the high side of middle income, and the West Bank is on the high side of low income (about same as Ghana), and Gaza is plain low income. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/194 "2018-01-21T10:50:33Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As already said, and I think this is the key, Israel from its modern birth was a European culture with European technology, education and expectations, unlike its neighbors and the Palestinian Arabs themselves. It’s a little like asking (although of course the gap between was far greater) why the English colonists in America did better than the American Indians, or the colonists in Australia did better than the aboriginals. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Culture as in Democracy and better leadership for sure. And yes better entrepreneurial culture. And yet the Palestinian diaspora is quite successful in the entrepreneurship… out side of the occupation zones I shall quote from above > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Anyway this whole thread is pretty revolting. > > I’m reminded of Afrikanner intellectuals in the 90s pointing to the conditions in Bantustans and saying “see, we’re more civilized and superior to those kaffirs”. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/195 "2018-01-21T22:08:06Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > And yet the Palestinian diaspora is quite successful in the entrepreneurship… Very good point. Where there is good governance, yes, Palestinians have high income – often higher than Jews. > [@Ramira](#): > > And yet the Palestinian diaspora is quite successful in the entrepreneurship… out side of the occupation zones Is Gaza an occupation zone? You’ll probably say yes – but it is clear, at least to me, that Gaza isn’t anywhere near as much of an occupation zone as the West Bank. And yet the purchasing power parity per capita income of Gaza is about half of that of the West Bank. So there are multiple factors. One factor is occupation zone on the West Bank. Another factor is the aggressive military stance against Israel by Gaza resulting in Israel, as self-defense, closing the Gaza airport, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/196 "2018-01-22T04:48:05Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I shall quote from above Weirdly enough, the above quote is me not Aldiboronti. > [@](#): > > Very good point. Where there is good governance, yes, Palestinians have high income – often higher than Jews. I’m not sure there was terribly good governance in Kuwait prior to the Iraqi invasion. If anything it was characterized by corruption and inefficiency. After the invasion they were expelled, or at the least encouraged rather forcefully to leave but prior to this there was a sizable Palestinian community there which did quite well. There are also many Latin American countries with sizable Palestinian communities which aren’t first World countries. In fact, in Chile there are more Palestinian Christians than in Palestine itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/197 "2018-01-22T09:08:08Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Is Gaza an occupation zone? Of course it is. Who controls its borders and controls literally every in and out movement of the goods and bans free flows? The Israel Whatever the reasons (and yes the Hamas generates many of its own), it remains an occuption in the same way that the Warsaw ghettoe was an occupation. > [@](#): > > You’ll probably say yes – but it is clear, at least to me, that Gaza isn’t anywhere near as much of an occupation zone as the West Bank. And yet the purchasing power parity per capita income of Gaza is about half of that of the West Bank. Yes, this tends to happen when you have what is in effect the prison colony economy where there is zero free flow of goods and the economy subsists very much on fucking tunnels dug into Egypt. Tunnels. Of course the Hamas are complete cretins in government, but this does not change that a small parcel of land with zero viability in the terms of self sufficiency that is under a goods embargoe (and not benefitting as does the West Bank from massive outside aide) will be poorer. It is the economics 101. Ibn Warraq has replied to the other asserted observation. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Weirdly enough, the above quote is me not Aldiboronti. > . Odd why it quoted that way, it was the board software and not me. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/198 "2018-01-22T09:16:59Z")
Gaza isn’t occupied, it’s besieged. Occupied = troops on the inside. Besieged = troops on the outside. That’s not a value judgement - just semantics. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/199 "2018-01-22T09:52:03Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Whatever the reasons (and yes the Hamas generates many of its own), it remains an occuption in the\*\* same way\*\* that the Warsaw ghettoe was an occupation.] This is a DEEPLY offensive statement. Please stop and think about it for a minute. Your statement is also illogical. The Jews were herded into a ghetto against their will.They were imprisoned with the purpose of transporting them to murder camps. The Jews had no options, no freedom to negotiate with their captors. Gaza has plenty of choices. (Unfortunately, they chose terrorism.) Ramira, you’ve made a lot of good posts in the past. This statement is, I hope, an honest mistake. But it crosses the line of good taste. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/200 "2018-01-22T16:02:11Z")
Gaza does not have plenty of choices. Be offended as you want with the selective preciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/201 "2018-01-22T16:06:48Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Ramira, you’ve made a lot of good posts in the past. This statement is, I hope, an honest mistake. > But it crosses the line of good taste. Comparing the Israelis to the Nazis is never any sort of mistake (honest or otherwise) in these sorts of debates. It’s a pointed and purposeful comparison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=11)