# Why is Israel rich and Palestine poor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629 "2012-12-10T18:58:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Titanium\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@Titanium\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Titanium_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/41 "2012-12-11T01:40:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But that rather proves my point; Jews who were being occupied and persecuted didn’t build anything like Israel under those conditions; they couldn’t. No one can. I seem to recall them living in Europe, where they were prominent scientists, and the US, where they helped to build the first nuclear bomb. I think they did just fine, despite their repression. Indeed, some believe that the above-average IQ of Jews is due to natural selection - the dumb Jews all died. Then again, given Israel, its pretty clear not all of them did 😛 I think a more interesting question is “Why is the Arab world in general poor relative to the west?” The Arabs were in a pretty similar situation to the Europeans if you go back to the first bit of the 2nd millenium. Likewise, Mexico and all of South America is massively poorer than the US and Canada are, despite also being breakaways from colonial powers. The answer is very likely “because they don’t form a coherent society”. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/42 "2012-12-11T01:41:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Still not even close to the conditions the Palestinians have lived under. I don’t believe that anybody could have been in the position of the Palestinians and built a modern industrial nation. I think most sensible people would agree. There are lots of problems preventing Palestine from attaining legitimate stable statehood, certainly not the least of which is Israel’s interference. They’re more terrified of a stable and rich Palestine than a fragmented and disorganized one. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/43 "2012-12-11T01:49:11Z")
> [@Titanium\_Dragon](#): > > I seem to recall them living in Europe, where they were prominent scientists, and the US, where they helped to build the first nuclear bomb. Are you trying to equate the conditions of Jews living in Europe (pre-Holocaust) and America to those of Palestinians in the last 60 years? It’s not even close. > [@](#): > > Indeed, some believe that the above-average IQ of Jews is due to natural selection - the dumb Jews all died. “Some believe?” Who? Certainly nobody who actually knows anything about evolution or genetics. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/44 "2012-12-11T12:28:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Add 6) constant attacks and harassment by Israel. People who spend their time under occupation, being bombed, being shot, being driven out of their homes, or in refugee camps don’t build industrialized nations. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would allow them to build such a nation. The Israelis (or anyone else) wouldn’t have done much if at all better under the same conditions. Ahh, the sweet hum of the Liberal Excuse Machine. I’m curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans? > [@Shodan](#): > > Part of the issue might be because Israeli leaders don’t steal as much of the aid they get. Well Arab corruption is surely the result of misbehavior by Jewish people or European colonial powers or something. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/45 "2012-12-11T12:44:15Z")
P.S. If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel. For example, Jordan is full of Arabs and has been (somewhat) at peace with Israel for many years now. Same thing for Egypt. Syria is full of Arabs and is in a state of war with Israel but that war has been pretty cool for quite a while now. So by the “Israeli misconduct” hypothesis, these countries ought to be thriving. Which of course they are not. I would guess a big part of the problem is corruption and absence of rule of law. As well as a culture which has a different concept of honor than the West. In the West “honor” means keeping your promises. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/46 "2012-12-11T13:59:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans? And where did I even imply that they had no flaws? Nothing I said was even incompatible with the other problems people have listed; I was pointing out that Israel was a contribution to their problems, not the sole source of them. > [@brazil84](#): > > P.S. If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel. > > For example, Jordan is full of Arabs and has been (somewhat) at peace with Israel for many years now. Same thing for Egypt. Syria is full of Arabs and is in a state of war with Israel but that war has been pretty cool for quite a while now. So by the “Israeli misconduct” hypothesis, these countries ought to be thriving. No; it just means they should be better off. Which they are. And your idea that either everything is Israel’s fault or nothing is their fault is a false dilemma and strawman. > [@brazil84](#): > > As well as a culture which has a different concept of honor than the West. In the West “honor” means keeping your promises. Then the West isn’t very honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/47 "2012-12-11T14:39:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For starters Palestine is still occupied. Israel isn’t. And no, Israel’s first citizens were never “occupied”. > > Obviously most came from countries where they were persecuted minorities but that’s a seperate issue. The first Zionists lived under foreign occupation - the British. In fact, many of Zionism’s leaders gained their training doing much as the PLO later did - as “freedom fighters” or “terrorists” (take your pick), fighting a nasty battle against both Brits and Arabs. To my mind, the main diffeence is that the Israelis were able, once the British left (in fact, even before) to suppress their extremists - the Irgun/Stern Gang types (although some of these fellows came back as politicians, as an organization they were effectively defanged by the Haganah). Thus, once the actual colonial occupation was gone in '48, they could rapidly concentrate on nation-building. What we see in Gaza today is somewhat what Israel would have been like, more or less, had the Irgun won the internal battle with the Haganah. Only worse because the Irgun were not also religious fanatics. The problem of course is that the PA is simply not as effective a government-in-waiting as the Yishuv had. I don’t believe that the fact that the Israelis put pressure on them makes the primary difference. The Brits put pressure on the Yishuv, without it collapsing into impotence on the one hand and extremism on the other. ---
**Author:** ![bahimes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@bahimes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahimes)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/48 "2012-12-11T14:41:04Z")
From **Machine Elf** ’s link, though it is directly addressing the military strengths of the Arabs, the cultural context is compelling. Change “military” to “academia” to “business” or “insert your context here”. Bolding mine. > **[Why Arabs Lose Wars](https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/why-arabs-lose-wars)** > > Arabic-speaking armies have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s.1 Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming > [@](#): > > Why Arabs Lose Wars > > by Norvell B. De Atkine > Middle East Quarterly > December 1999 > > Head-to-head competition among individuals is generally avoided, at least openly, for it means that someone wins and someone else loses, with the **loser humiliated**. This taboo has particular import when a class contains mixed ranks. Education is in good part sought as a matter of personal prestige, so Arabs in U.S. military schools take pains to ensure that the ranking member, according to military position or social class, scores the highest marks in the class. Often this leads to “sharing answers” in class—often in a rather overt manner or junior officers concealing scores higher than their superior’s. > > All of which has led American trainers to develop a rule of thumb: a sergeant first class in the U.S. Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army. This section of the linked article speaks directly to education, it all seems very clear, and may be stereotypical, but check the author’s credentials. You have ruling class, economic and political elite, and everyone else. My wife has been an EFL/TESOL teacher all her adult life. The hardest students to teach were those from the ME. The concept of “cheating” did not compute. They all failed or passed, depending on if one of them took decent notes. When it came time for the TOEFL exams to go on to a US University, she had to put them in separate rooms or spaced so far apart they couldn’t cheat. And the most hateful even scurrilous “teacher evalulation” sheets they handed in…:eek: I saw this effect to a lesser extent in Spain, where the Engineers, who mostly spoke perfect English could not be reliably depended upon to speak clearly and with patience with the installers and technicians to explain process and procedure. Therefore, three retired USN NCOs were hired to lead teams of technicians. There are little to no “middle class” to even out the society. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/49 "2012-12-11T14:44:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > They’ve never been conquered and occupied for almost half-a-century. > I don’t see how anyone, particularly when they don’t even have a state, could have become a modern industrial nation as the OP is wondering. Before Israel became a state in 1948, it was conquered and occupied.( First by the Ottoman Turks, and then by the British Empire.) But despite the difficulties, the Jewish population living in Palestine focused its energy on the **positive** aspects of nation building. The Palestinians focus all their energy on the negatives. During the 40 years before becoming an independent nation, the Israelis built universities, hospitals, banks, electric power stations, the uniquely successful agricultural communes called “kibbutz”, and established political parties which took responsibility for their actions and were untainted by corruption. Yes, there was some violence, too…but violence was never the main raison d’etre of the Israeli leadership, and was never widely supported by the man in the street. And _that_ is the main difference between Israel and Palestine. , ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/50 "2012-12-11T15:30:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Still not even close to the conditions the Palestinians have lived under. I don’t believe that anybody could have been in the position of the Palestinians and built a modern industrial nation. This is certainly a valid point post-1967, but I would argue that the groundwork for Israel as a prosperous, Western-style nation was laid before that, and the Arabs in what are now the PA (yes, there are now _de facto_ two of 'em…) could have made the same steps forward in the same time frame. Arguably, had they done so the 1967 war may not have involved Jordan at all (although this latter thought experiment is not applicable to Gaza) > [@Malthus](#): > > The first Zionists lived under foreign occupation - the British. In fact, many of Zionism’s leaders gained their training doing much as the PLO later did - as “freedom fighters” or “terrorists” (take your pick), fighting a nasty battle against both Brits and Arabs. > > To my mind, the main diffeence is that the Israelis were able, once the British left (in fact, even before) to suppress their extremists - the Irgun/Stern Gang types (although some of these fellows came back as politicians, as an organization they were effectively defanged by the Haganah). Thus, once the actual colonial occupation was gone in '48, they could rapidly concentrate on nation-building. Pretty much this, which is IMO another way of saying what I said above – it all boils down to how fast and in which direction a society leaves the starting block towards becoming a nation-state; it is **extremely** difficult to change course later. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/51 "2012-12-11T15:45:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And where did I even imply that they had no flaws? You didn’t, but offering such a ridiculous excuse for Arab failure gives a hint as to how you think about these things. I’m just curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans? > [@](#): > > No; it just means they should be better off. Which they are. So you feel without all that Israeli abuse (:rolleyes:), the Palestinian Arabs would be at about the economic level of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt? > [@](#): > > And your idea that either everything is Israel’s fault or nothing is their fault is a false dilemma and strawman. Please show me where I expressed such an idea. Please quote me. Looks to me like you are the one who is strawmanning here. > [@](#): > > Then the West isn’t very honorable. Honorable enough that people are willing to invest substantial money here. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/52 "2012-12-11T16:00:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er…no. The Palestinians aren’t considered Arabs because of where they lived. They’re considered Arabs because the speak Arabic. > > The Israelis, by contrast don’t speak Arabic, but speak Hebrew. > > You might as well ask why the Turks and the Kurds aren’t considered Arabs. Ah i did wonder about that thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/53 "2012-12-11T16:05:28Z")
The problem here is that Israel’s Arab neighbours, who presumably do not suffer the impact of Israeli occupation, are still considerably poorer than Israel. The World Bank uses the GNI rating, described as follows: > [@](#): > > GNI per capita (formerly GNP per capita) is the gross national income, converted to U.S. dollars using the World Bank Atlas method, divided by the midyear population. GNI is the sum of value added by all resident producers plus any product taxes (less subsidies) not included in the valuation of output plus net receipts of primary income (compensation of employees and property income) from abroad. GNI, calculated in national currency, is usually converted to U.S. dollars at official exchange rates for comparisons across economies, although an alternative rate is used when the official exchange rate is judged to diverge by an exceptionally large margin from the rate actually applied in international transactions. To smooth fluctuations in prices and exchange rates, a special Atlas method of conversion is used by the World Bank. This applies a conversion factor that averages the exchange rate for a given year and the two preceding years, adjusted for differences in rates of inflation between the country, and through 2000, the G-5 countries (France, Germany, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States). From 2001, these countries include the Euro area, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States. The GNI for Israel as of last measure was $28,930. > **[World Bank Open Data](https://data.worldbank.org/country/israel)** > > Free and open access to global development data The GNI for Syria was $2,750. The GNI for Egypt was $2,600. The smaller countries in the region fare better: GNI for Jordan was $4,380. By way of comparison, the GNI for Canada was $45,560; the GNI for Mexico was $9,240. World bank doesn’t have a cite for Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/54 "2012-12-11T16:09:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree that it’s counter-productive. The Palestinian Arabs remind me of some comic-book villain who spends all his time thinking about how he’s going to “get” the hero. In the “Heroic” view of history yes but in reality i’m sure most Palestinians and Israeli’s just want a home food and some security. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/55 "2012-12-11T16:10:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The fact that you use the word “Palestine” demonstrates part of the problem, which is that the Palestinian Arabs are much more interested in the trappings of statehood (which they believe can be used to undermine Israel) than in doing the actual work of building and bettering themselves. I would put it the other way round. I think certain “trappings of statehood” are a prerequisite to prosperity. Failed states don’t become economic powerhouses. And who wants to locate a business in the west bank, while you don’t know if tomorrow someone else will claim the land, or put a checkpoint on the road your deliveries need to go on? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/56 "2012-12-11T16:26:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I would put it the other way round. I think certain “trappings of statehood” are a prerequisite to prosperity. Can you give me a few positive and negative examples of this? > [@](#): > > Failed states don’t become economic powerhouses. And pretending that it’s not a failed state helps how? > [@](#): > > And who wants to locate a business in the west bank, while you don’t know if tomorrow someone else will claim the land, I would say it depends on who is in charge. If the land is under Israeli control, you have access to Israeli courts. Note that Israeli courts regularly rule against the government and regularly rule in favor of Arab petitioners. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/57 "2012-12-11T16:41:31Z")
It’ kind of crazy concept, but most Arabs I’ve ever known don’t think in terms of more wealth, greater productivity, bigger cars. Capitalism is often seen, in a bemused way, as a western disease. Plus an awful lot is Allah’s will. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/58 "2012-12-11T16:49:39Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] The problem here is that Israel’s Arab neighbours, who presumably do not suffer the impact of Israeli occupation, are still considerably poorer than Israel. [/QUOTE] And that’s the key right there. Unless the contention is that Israel stole ALL the best land in the region and has kept all the other countries around it down. I’d say that the primary reason that Israel is relatively rich and the rest of the region is relatively poor is that Israel has a democratic government, has rule of law and is business friendly and has cultivated extensive business and trade relationships outside of their country. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/59 "2012-12-11T17:05:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ahh, the sweet hum of the Liberal Excuse Machine. I’m curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? You’re right! They _are_ scum! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/60 "2012-12-11T17:06:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > And pretending that it’s not a failed state helps how? I don’t think that anyone should pretend to be anything. You’ve said that the Arabs should not be seeking the trappings of statehood but should be bettering themselves first. I’m saying it’s hard to better yourself while you’re not even a country. If I buy the deeds to some land, I want to know that no-one will dispute my ownership for decades at least. I don’t want to be thinking WTF will happen next month. > [@](#): > > I would say it depends on who is in charge. If the land is under Israeli control, you have access to Israeli courts. Note that Israeli courts regularly rule against the government and regularly rule in favor of Arab petitioners. Yeah, I’m sure that would be really reassuring to investors: a whole other country might interfere in your affairs, that has nothing to gain from your business succeeding. A country that builds settlements and checkpoints where they like. But hey, you could always try to sue that country in their courts; some people have apparently won! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=4)