# Why is Israel rich and Palestine poor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629 "2012-12-10T18:58:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/61 "2012-12-11T17:16:28Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > In the “Heroic” view of history yes but in reality i’m sure most Palestinians and Israeli’s just want a home food and some security. I don’t think that’s true. There’s a difference between “want” and “just want.” Clearly the Arabs (generally speaking) want more than just a home food and some security. Otherwise they would not elect or support radicals who want to destroy Israel. In any event, it is the desires of the Arab leadership which count (as far as leadership goes, anyway) and they are the ones who have channeled Arab energy and creativity into figuring out new ways to undermine Israel. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/62 "2012-12-11T18:09:58Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You’re right! They _are_ scum! Lol, if “scum” = suffering for the most part as a result of their own (collective) flaws and shortcomings as opposed to the misconduct of outsiders, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/63 "2012-12-11T20:11:28Z")
Not being able to travel freely and efficiently within Palestine is a big hindrance. > [@friedo](#): > > In place of 4) I would put that Israel has an open economy and a relatively transparent government with the rule of law and basic property rights. Those are necessary ingredients for a society to create and maintain wealth. Palestine has been run by a succession of corrupt despots or infighting ideologues for its entire history. Nobody is going to invest in Palestine if they are not confident that the government will guarantee fairness and protection. Exacerbating that, it’s far more difficult to invest in Palestine than in Israel, thanks to both Israeli policies and the Palestine goverment (or lack of government, for much of the time, thanks largely to Israel). > [@DrDeth](#): > > It can’t be 2 or 3. Regarding 2, personal cash infusions are far better for economic growth than government subsidies. Israel clearly got the best of the land, but they also had a culture of improving the land through irrigation, which the Palestinians did not have. (I won’t get into how irrigation eventually dooms the irrigated land, since that’s still a long way off.) > [@md2000](#): > > partly it’s a bootstrap effect I’m confident that’s a huge factor, as well as banking and property laws as you mentioned. > [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > I have often wondered why if the Arab world loves the Palestinians why they don’t indeed have the best army, air force and homes, food and agriculture in the world, after all the Arab nations seem to have plenty of cash to throw around. Also if the Palestinians are considered Arabs since they lived in the place now claimed as Israel, why re the Israeli’s not Arabs too? Perhaps it’s best, for their interests, for the problem not to be solved. Please excuse my cynicism here. > [@brazil84](#): > > Ahh, the sweet hum of the Liberal Excuse Machine I made the same point and I’m hardly liberal. Poisoning the well is not good rhetoric. > [@](#): > > If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel Much better > [@](#): > > Lol, if “scum” = suffering for the most part as a result of their own (collective) flaws and shortcomings as opposed to the misconduct of outsiders, then yes. So you don’t think that fleeing your home, leaving all your property behind and not being allowed back isn’t a bit of a blow that’s hard to recover from? You don’t think that taking 8 hours to cross 200 miles due to checkpoints isn’t a barrier to business development? You don’t think that lack of statehood compounds difficulty for foreign investment? I don’t blame Palestine’s problems on either side. There’s quite enough blame to spread around on both sides, and probably to the US and the UN as well. And definitely to the rest of the Arab world, who convinced many of them to flee in the first place (abetted by Israelis who wanted them to flee as well). Can you name any refugee camps that have developed thriving economies? A huge number of Palestinians are refugees whose land was taken from them (by the fault of themselves and others). They have no property and little means to get any, with imports and exports denied or slowed to the point of being uneconomic. You accuse others of bias, but your points illuminate little but your own bias. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/64 "2012-12-11T20:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Learjeff] Not being able to travel freely and efficiently within Palestine is a big hindrance. [/QUOTE] Sure. But you’d need to look at the root cause of that, and ask yourself the question…WHY aren’t the Palestinians allowed free travel (not just in Israel either)? > [@](#): > > So you don’t think that fleeing your home, leaving all your property behind and not being allowed back isn’t a bit of a blow that’s hard to recover from? You don’t think that taking 8 hours to cross 200 miles due to checkpoints isn’t a barrier to business development? You don’t think that lack of statehood compounds difficulty for foreign investment? Again, that’s true. However, that’s the consequences of losing a war that you (collectively) had a large stake in, as well as decades of suicide bombs, rocket attacks, terrorist attacks and various other unsavory activities. Not all Palestinians, of course, have actively done those things…but they are all painted with the same broad brush because they systematically have refused to reign in their nut jobs and whack-a-do loony types. This has caused every one of the problems you state here…and, ultimately, it’s the reason they don’t HAVE a state today. After all, they could have taken half a loaf back in '48, but CHOSE not too, and instead chose to try and fight for it. Sadly, for them, they lost…and more sadly, they simply have never accepted that they lost, especially 2 or 3 decades ago when it would have made their negotiation position much more strong. Today? They are fucked, basically. > [@](#): > > I don’t blame Palestine’s problems on either side. There’s quite enough blame to spread around on both sides, and probably to the US and the UN as well. And definitely to the rest of the Arab world, who convinced many of them to flee in the first place (abetted by Israelis who wanted them to flee as well). There is blame on all sides, but it’s not equal blame. The Palestinians, as a whole, get the lions share of the blame for this fucked up situation, especially the Palestinian leadership during the 70’s and 80’s…and the leadership during the 40’s and 50’s and 60’s as well. Oh, and the leadership during the 90’s and 00’s too. And they aren’t doing a cracking good job today either. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/65 "2012-12-11T20:26:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t think that’s true. There’s a difference between “want” and “just want.” Clearly the Arabs (generally speaking) want more than just a home food and some security. Otherwise they would not elect or support radicals who want to destroy Israel. > > In any event, it is the desires of the Arab leadership which count (as far as leadership goes, anyway) and they are the ones who have channeled Arab energy and creativity into figuring out new ways to undermine Israel. the west bleated for “democracy” and the untrustworthy locals voted the wrong way! Generally the world has a bad habit of electing people who seem to be counterproductive to their own well being. Maybe elections are won on an idea rather than any reality. Isn’t it all to convenient and over arching to say “Arab” anyway? Surely in reality the Arab word is very diverse and though sharing language (though not universal?) and an “imaginary friend” (though differing branches of them too!) as different as chalk and cheese. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/66 "2012-12-11T21:36:30Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Sure. But you’d need to look at the root cause of that, and ask yourself the question…WHY aren’t the Palestinians allowed free travel (not just in Israel either)? Nolo contendere. > [@](#): > > There is blame on all sides, but it’s not equal blame. The Palestinians, as a whole, get the lions share of the blame for this fucked up situation, especially the Palestinian leadership during the 70’s and 80’s…and the leadership during the 40’s and 50’s and 60’s as well. Oh, and the leadership during the 90’s and 00’s too. And they aren’t doing a cracking good job today either. I think the Palestinians share a lot of that blame with Arab states, who manipulate them into remaining to be a festering wound. A lovely situation all around, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/67 "2012-12-11T21:43:38Z")
I’d say Israel is more prosperous than it’s neighbors because the Ashkenazi imported the first-world values developed over centuries in Europe and North America that make modern prosperity work. As for the Palestinians and other Arabs of the region, I’d say the main source of their hostility is wounded pride. Islam promises that the Faithful have Allah’s blessing over the infidel; Muslims are supposed to win, Christians and Jews are supposed to lose. In their view, the eclipse of Islamic countries by the West over the last century is an emasculating and infuriating injustice; and Israel is a modern-day Crusader state, created by British imperialism and sustained by American hegemony. The very existence of Israel, and the dominion of the West, is an “attack” on Islam by this theory. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/68 "2012-12-12T00:24:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Add 6) constant attacks and harassment by Israel. People who spend their time under occupation, being bombed, being shot, being driven out of their homes, or in refugee camps don’t build industrialized nations. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would allow them to build such a nation. The Israelis (or anyone else) wouldn’t have done much if at all better under the same conditions. I seem to recall Israel unilaterally pulling out of Gaza, leaving it to the Palestinians to run their own affairs. In no time at all, the Gazans had elected a Hamas-driven leadership and starting launching indiscriminate rocket attacks. Am I misremembering this? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/69 "2012-12-12T00:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=Learjeff] A lovely situation all around, frankly. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah…total cluster fuck levels of ‘lovely’, and I can’t see any way out of it for any of the players. I don’t even see some sort of Irish solution in these peoples futures, at least not any time soon. ☹ > [@](#): > > I think the Palestinians share a lot of that blame with Arab states, who manipulate them into remaining to be a festering wound. Definitely, though most of their neighbors gave up on this quest years ago, while the Palestinians fight on. Certainly Iran gets a big part of the blame as well. And I’m not letting the US, Europeans or the Israelis themselves off scott-free either…all have their own share of the shit sandwich, with the Israelis getting the larger piece. But in the end, it’s the Palestinians themselves who get the lions share…both of the blame, and of the shit. It’s sad, but again I don’t see any way out of this mess for them that they would agree too…just the gradual erosion of the territory they could have had, a gradual erosion of their identity, and a lot of pain, suffering and death in their future as it’s been in their past. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/70 "2012-12-12T00:46:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s sad, but again I don’t see any way out of this mess for them that they would agree too…just the gradual erosion of the territory they could have had… Why is that, again? Even if we accept that this is all about Palestinian aggression and Israel is just trying to defend itself, why should that provoke Israel into building more settlements in the west bank? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/71 "2012-12-12T00:53:41Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > So you don’t think that fleeing your home, leaving all your property behind and not being allowed back isn’t a bit of a blow that’s hard to recover from? Not really. The world is full of people who are descendants of people who had to flee for various reasons. Except for the Arabs, those descendants generally dust themselves off and get on with their lives. As far as I know, Palestinian Arabs are the only people in the world whose “refugee” status is passed down from generation to generation. > [@](#): > > You don’t think that taking 8 hours to cross 200 miles due to checkpoints isn’t a barrier to business development? No, not really. But at any rate, the Arabs have nobody to blame but themselves for any checkpoints. > [@](#): > > You don’t think that lack of statehood compounds difficulty for foreign investment? Again, not really. Besides which, the Arabs have nobody to blame for themselves for their lack of statehood. They were offered a Palestinian State 4 times and each time they rejected it. > [@](#): > > Can you name any refugee camps that have developed thriving economies? No. Can you name any “refugee camps” where refugee status has been passed down from generation to generation for 50 years? (Except of course for the Palestinian Arabs) Can you explain why the descendants of Arabs who fled Gaza in 1967 (and live in refugee camps in Jordan) are not being returned to Gaza? > [@](#): > > You accuse others of bias, but your points illuminate little but your own bias. If you think I am biased (and you are not), then you should be willing to apply your principles universally. Agreed? You should be able to give me examples of your points which concern other groups. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/72 "2012-12-12T01:09:45Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > I seem to recall Israel unilaterally pulling out of Gaza, leaving it to the Palestinians to run their own affairs. In no time at all, the Gazans had elected a Hamas-driven leadership and starting launching indiscriminate rocket attacks. Am I misremembering this? My remembrance is that in no time at all, the Palestinians elected a Hamas majority legislative body, then Western powers attempted to punish the Palestinians for engaging in democracy by imposing sanctions. After a civil war among the Palestinians, Fatah controlled the West Bank and Hamas the Gaza strip. The sanctions were then replaced with the blockade of Gaza. The number of rocket attacks showed a sharp increase since then. Perhaps my recollection is wrong, but I think your memory might be missing some steps. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/73 "2012-12-12T01:21:54Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Western powers attempted to punish the Palestinians for engaging in democracy Could you not find a less accurate, more emotionally loaded way to describe it? Something about stomping kittens, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/74 "2012-12-12T01:35:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Why is that, again? > > Even if we accept that this is all about Palestinian aggression and Israel is just trying to defend itself, why should that provoke Israel into building more settlements in the west bank? Why shouldn’t they? They have had that territory under their control for decades now…and they were gaining exactly dick by not settling the territory. So, you tell me…what’s in it for Israel to not settle that territory with their own, non-rocket firing and non-bomb strapping citizens? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/75 "2012-12-12T01:41:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t think that anyone should pretend to be anything.[ > You’ve said that the Arabs should not be seeking the trappings of statehood but should be bettering themselves first. Actually that’s not quite what I said. What I said was that the Palestinian Arabs are much more interested in the trappings of statehood (which they believe can be used to undermine Israel) than in doing the actual work of building and bettering themselves. > [@](#): > > I’m saying it’s hard to better yourself while you’re not even a country. Well what is it about “being a country” which makes it easier to better oneself? And are you claiming that this is the purpose for which the Palestinian Arabs seek the trappings of statehood? > [@](#): > > If I buy the deeds to some land, I want to know that no-one will dispute my ownership for decades at least. I don’t want to be thinking WTF will happen next month. I’m not sure what your point is here, but if the Palestinian Arabs are truly concerned about disputes over ownership, then they should have simply accepted Israel’s most recent statehood offer. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure that would be really reassuring to investors: a whole other country might interfere in your affairs, More reassuring than the alternative. Anyway, are you saying that the Palestinian Arabs have a “failed state”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/76 "2012-12-12T01:51:14Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > the west bleated for “democracy” and the untrustworthy locals voted the wrong way! I’m not sure what your point is here. Arabs have been voting in Israeli elections for many years now. Many times they have elected representatives who are extremely anti-Israel. And it’s not just elected officials. Competing factions in Arab non-democracies routinely accuse each other of being Zionists. The general consensus in the Arab world is extremely anti-Israel. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it all to convenient and over arching to say “Arab” anyway? > Surely in reality the Arab word is very diverse Well they are quite non-diverse in their hatred for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/77 "2012-12-12T02:37:28Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > My remembrance is that in no time at all, the Palestinians elected a Hamas majority legislative body, then Western powers attempted to punish the Palestinians for engaging in democracy by imposing sanctions. After a civil war among the Palestinians, Fatah controlled the West Bank and Hamas the Gaza strip. The sanctions were then replaced with the blockade of Gaza. The number of rocket attacks showed a sharp increase since then. Perhaps my recollection is wrong, but I think your memory might be missing some steps. I remember the steps; you just have them out of order. Anyway, my initial point was in response to the claim that attacks on Israel were only natural, given their occupation. In this instance, when the occupation was lifted, the attacks continued. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/78 "2012-12-12T02:46:33Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > I remember the steps; you just have them out of order. Could you take the steps I listed and place them in the correct order then? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/79 "2012-12-12T05:51:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > ..Western powers attempted to punish the Palestinians for engaging in democracy by imposing sanctions.. The number of rocket attacks showed a sharp increase since then. Oh, so it’s okay for there to be rocket attacks, it’s just the “sharp increase” that bothers you? That’s the whole root of the problem–after engaging in democracy, the Gazans proudly chose terrorism, not nation-building. When the Israelis walked out of Gaza, they left behind fully functioning, profitable businesses. Especially the agricultural greenhouses with computerized irrigation systems and valuable contracts with customers in Europe. The Palestinians could have chosen to manage those greenhouses (which no longer exist). Instead, they chose to launch rockets into the schoolyards and apartment buildings of Israel. But that’s okay with you, apparently… as long as the increase in the number of attacks is gradual, and not too sharp. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629/80 "2012-12-12T07:02:07Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Oh, so it’s okay for there to be rocket attacks, it’s just the “sharp increase” that bothers you? > > That’s the whole root of the problem–after engaging in democracy, the Gazans proudly chose terrorism, not nation-building. > > When the Israelis walked out of Gaza, they left behind fully functioning, profitable businesses. Especially the agricultural greenhouses with computerized irrigation systems and valuable contracts with customers in Europe. The Palestinians could have chosen to manage those greenhouses (which no longer exist). Instead, they chose to launch rockets into the schoolyards and apartment buildings of Israel. > > But that’s okay with you, apparently… as long as the increase in the number of attacks is gradual, and not too sharp. I was listing a series of events in the order in which I thought they occurred. I did so because I think relating the sanctions and eventual blockade directly to rocket attacks is inaccurate and a distortion caused by the sheer number of events that occurred after 2006 and the simultaneous attempts to organize those events in the minds of people who differ in their sympathies for the parties in this conflict. If you think I am saying anything more beyond that then it is a figment of your imagination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-israel-rich-and-palestine-poor/643629.md?page=5)