Why is Israel rich and Palestine poor?

[brazil84]

@Wrenching_Spanners

I visited the West Bank last year, and while I can only offer anecdotal evidence from one day, your statement about cars if far from obvious. Over 90% of the cars we saw were several years old and several looked over 20 years old. The newish cars we saw were generally compacts. The one place where we saw a majority of nice cars? The Jewish settlement we drove through.

Where exactly did you go? Which towns and settlements?

[Mijin]

Bear in mind the context in which cars were originally brought up:

@brazil84

But perhaps a more telling difference is that the Arabs in the West Bank generally drive much nicer cars than the Jews.

I googled it, and it turns out that Palestine has 42 cars per 1,000 population. So “they” don’t generally drive (btw car ownership in Israel is about 10x this).

Like I say, it’s the same old bigotry – I hear people say the same thing about Gypsies or any immigrant group they want to denigrate. Not only are they all thieving scroungers but they all drive around in fancy cars. :rolleyes:

[Mijin]

Sorry: I used the word “Gypsy” above, without realizing it is an offensive term in many parts of the world.
I could pretend it was meant ironically, but it was just ignorance.

[Kearsen1]

@Mijin

In general, strange thread. Of course it’s a polarizing topic.

But in terms of economics, you’re talking about a territory with limited, ambiguous land ownership rights and limited control of their own borders. of course they are dirt poor. We may as well ask why no fortune 500 companies operate from prison.

Now on the question of who’s to blame for that situation, sure we can have a debate. But regardless, the status quo is not conducive to economic growth to say the least.

Martha Stewart!

[Wrenching_Spanners]

@brazil84

Where exactly did you go? Which towns and settlements?

Hebron and its outskirts and Bethlehem. The settlement was in the Hebron outskirts.

[bump]

@md2000

partly it’s a bootstrap effect. The government of israel, for example, was determined to provide electricity, water, roads phones, postal service, etc. to a european standard. The european arrivals expected nothing less. These immigrants also had among them the electricians, engineers, project managers, etc. to implement this infrastructure, and the education (literacy, etc.) to learn what they did not have. Despotic and corrupt arab leaders had much less incentive, money or technical experts to implement these changes, if at all, beyond the big cities.

Basically the founders of the Israeli state and the initial immigrants strove to reproduce a European-style nation in Israel, complete with first-world infrastructure and a similar legal/business climate, including property rights, rule of law and intolerance of corruption.

Meanwhile the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states continued doing their own thing, which wasn’t the same thing, and wasn’t going to produce the same results.

I suspect the same thing happened vis-a-vis the US and Mexico. Mexico was already there, doing their thing in their own way, and the US settlers to Texas, California and everywhere in between basically remade the area into US-style nations/states with everything that comes with it. And the contrast between the ways of doing things and their subsequent success is pretty stark.

My guess is that there are a small handful of things that have to be in place- a healthy respect for the rule of law, intolerance of corruption (not absolute, but generally a healthy intolerance), and a legal/business climate that allows people to get ahead without being legally handicapped by the government or competing interests.

[Lumpy]

It also helps if the people who do have wealth spend it on reinvestment instead of building palaces.

[brazil84]

@Mijin

Bear in mind the context in which cars were originally brought up:

I googled it, and it turns out that Palestine has 42 cars per 1,000 population. So “they” don’t generally drive (btw car ownership in Israel is about 10x this).

That’s not inconsistent with anything I have said. The area referred to as “Palestine” is poor and corrupt. That explains both general the lack of car ownership as well as the presence of nicer cars among those who do own them.

Anyway, please answer my questions:

1. Do you agree that the PA is far more corrupt than Israel?

2. Are you aware it’s been 14 years since the PA had elections?

3. Do you concede that Jordan lacks the attributes of “ambiguous land ownership” and “limited control of its borders”?

[brazil84]

@Wrenching_Spanners

Hebron and its outskirts and Bethlehem. The settlement was in the Hebron outskirts.

Which settlement?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@blood63

Here are some possible answers.

1. Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
2. Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli. Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
3. The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
4. Israelis are industrious and Arabs are lazy. (I somehow doubt this one)
5. any or all of the above.

Why are oppressed poorer than the oppressors? It’s an enigma.

Are the Palestinians culturally, genetically or otherwise any different than the people in the surrounding countries?

[brazil84]

@bump

Meanwhile the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states

Putting aside issues of nomenclature, I basically agree with this. The per capita GDP of the area known as “Palestine” is comparable to that of Jordan and Egypt. Which are very similar to “Palestine” in terms of the people living their and their culture.

Neither Jordan nor Egypt are occupied by Israel.

[Wrenching_Spanners]

@brazil84

Which settlement?

No idea what its name was. If the tour guide said it, it didn’t stick. If I remember correctly, it had a sign near the entrance, but it was in Hebrew. It was the one on the outskirts of Hebron, near the water pumping station, with a children’s school, and near a road to the highway that was blocked off by a pole-type gate, meaning we had to backtrack to get back to the highway. Is that good enough?

[brazil84]

@Wrenching_Spanners

No idea what its name was. If the tour guide said it, it didn’t stick. If I remember correctly, it had a sign near the entrance, but it was in Hebrew. It was the one on the outskirts of Hebron, near the water pumping station, with a children’s school, and near a road to the highway that was blocked off by a pole-type gate, meaning we had to backtrack to get back to the highway. Is that good enough?

I would guess Kiryat Arba, population 7000. Anyway, your narrow experience seems to have been different from mine.

Not that it really matters, as no reasonable person can deny that “Palestine” is far more corrupt than Israel.

[brazil84]

@Mijin

In general, strange thread. Of course it’s a polarizing topic.

But in terms of economics, you’re talking about a territory with limited, ambiguous land ownership rights and limited control of their own borders. of course they are dirt poor.

The area known as “Palestine” actually has a slightly higher per capita GDP than Egypt. This is important because the Palestinian Arabs are similar to the Arabs of Egypt in terms of language, culture, genes, everything. In fact “Al-Masri” is a very common name among Palestinian Arabs and it indicates Egyptian origin. Yasser Arafat (former head of the PLO) was actually from Egypt.

The area known as “Palestine” also has a slightly lower per capita GDP than that of Jordan. Again, the Palestinian Arabs are very similar to the Jordanian Arabs.

In fact, before the British mandate, there were no separate countries of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Arabic-speaking people moved freely throughout the Ottoman empire. Many, perhaps most of the “Palestinians” are Arabs who internally migrated during the Ottoman days due to the economic boom brought on by the early Zionists.

Anyway, the point is that if Jordan, Egypt, and “Palestine” are all similar in terms of GDP; and they are all similar in terms of their people, language, and culture, the common sense explanation is that their (relative) poverty is the result of the factors they share in common, most likely their corrupt cultures.

Put simply, I suggest that you put aside the bigoted and simplistic explanations which reflexively put the blame on Israel and study the actual facts with an open mind.

But regardless, the status quo is not conducive to economic growth to say the least.

What is the reason why Intel is eager to build a chip fabrication plant in Kiryat Gat but not Ramallah or Cairo or Anman? Are they more worried about the Israelis or the Arabs?