I seem to recall them living in Europe, where they were prominent scientists, and the US, where they helped to build the first nuclear bomb.
I think they did just fine, despite their repression. Indeed, some believe that the above-average IQ of Jews is due to natural selection - the dumb Jews all died.
Then again, given Israel, its pretty clear not all of them did
I think a more interesting question is “Why is the Arab world in general poor relative to the west?” The Arabs were in a pretty similar situation to the Europeans if you go back to the first bit of the 2nd millenium.
Likewise, Mexico and all of South America is massively poorer than the US and Canada are, despite also being breakaways from colonial powers.
The answer is very likely “because they don’t form a coherent society”.
I think most sensible people would agree. There are lots of problems preventing Palestine from attaining legitimate stable statehood, certainly not the least of which is Israel’s interference. They’re more terrified of a stable and rich Palestine than a fragmented and disorganized one.
Are you trying to equate the conditions of Jews living in Europe (pre-Holocaust) and America to those of Palestinians in the last 60 years? It’s not even close.
“Some believe?” Who? Certainly nobody who actually knows anything about evolution or genetics.
Ahh, the sweet hum of the Liberal Excuse Machine. I’m curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans?
Well Arab corruption is surely the result of misbehavior by Jewish people or European colonial powers or something.
P.S. If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel.
For example, Jordan is full of Arabs and has been (somewhat) at peace with Israel for many years now. Same thing for Egypt. Syria is full of Arabs and is in a state of war with Israel but that war has been pretty cool for quite a while now. So by the “Israeli misconduct” hypothesis, these countries ought to be thriving. Which of course they are not.
I would guess a big part of the problem is corruption and absence of rule of law. As well as a culture which has a different concept of honor than the West. In the West “honor” means keeping your promises.
And where did I even imply that they had no flaws? Nothing I said was even incompatible with the other problems people have listed; I was pointing out that Israel was a contribution to their problems, not the sole source of them.
No; it just means they should be better off. Which they are.
And your idea that either everything is Israel’s fault or nothing is their fault is a false dilemma and strawman.
The first Zionists lived under foreign occupation - the British. In fact, many of Zionism’s leaders gained their training doing much as the PLO later did - as “freedom fighters” or “terrorists” (take your pick), fighting a nasty battle against both Brits and Arabs.
To my mind, the main diffeence is that the Israelis were able, once the British left (in fact, even before) to suppress their extremists - the Irgun/Stern Gang types (although some of these fellows came back as politicians, as an organization they were effectively defanged by the Haganah). Thus, once the actual colonial occupation was gone in '48, they could rapidly concentrate on nation-building.
What we see in Gaza today is somewhat what Israel would have been like, more or less, had the Irgun won the internal battle with the Haganah. Only worse because the Irgun were not also religious fanatics.
The problem of course is that the PA is simply not as effective a government-in-waiting as the Yishuv had. I don’t believe that the fact that the Israelis put pressure on them makes the primary difference. The Brits put pressure on the Yishuv, without it collapsing into impotence on the one hand and extremism on the other.
From Machine Elf’s link, though it is directly addressing the military strengths of the Arabs, the cultural context is compelling. Change “military” to “academia” to “business” or “insert your context here”.
Bolding mine.
This section of the linked article speaks directly to education, it all seems very clear, and may be stereotypical, but check the author’s credentials.
You have ruling class, economic and political elite, and everyone else.
My wife has been an EFL/TESOL teacher all her adult life. The hardest students to teach were those from the ME. The concept of “cheating” did not compute. They all failed or passed, depending on if one of them took decent notes. When it came time for the TOEFL exams to go on to a US University, she had to put them in separate rooms or spaced so far apart they couldn’t cheat. And the most hateful even scurrilous “teacher evalulation” sheets they handed in…:eek:
I saw this effect to a lesser extent in Spain, where the Engineers, who mostly spoke perfect English could not be reliably depended upon to speak clearly and with patience with the installers and technicians to explain process and procedure. Therefore, three retired USN NCOs were hired to lead teams of technicians.
There are little to no “middle class” to even out the society.
Before Israel became a state in 1948, it was conquered and occupied.( First by the Ottoman Turks, and then by the British Empire.)
But despite the difficulties, the Jewish population living in Palestine focused its energy on the positive aspects of nation building. The Palestinians focus all their energy on the negatives.
During the 40 years before becoming an independent nation, the Israelis built universities, hospitals, banks, electric power stations, the uniquely successful agricultural communes called “kibbutz”, and established political parties which took responsibility for their actions and were untainted by corruption.
Yes, there was some violence, too…but violence was never the main raison d’etre of the Israeli leadership, and was never widely supported by the man in the street.
And that is the main difference between Israel and Palestine.
This is certainly a valid point post-1967, but I would argue that the groundwork for Israel as a prosperous, Western-style nation was laid before that, and the Arabs in what are now the PA (yes, there are now de facto two of 'em…) could have made the same steps forward in the same time frame. Arguably, had they done so the 1967 war may not have involved Jordan at all (although this latter thought experiment is not applicable to Gaza)
Pretty much this, which is IMO another way of saying what I said above – it all boils down to how fast and in which direction a society leaves the starting block towards becoming a nation-state; it is extremely difficult to change course later.
You didn’t, but offering such a ridiculous excuse for Arab failure gives a hint as to how you think about these things.
I’m just curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans?
So you feel without all that Israeli abuse (:rolleyes:), the Palestinian Arabs would be at about the economic level of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt?
Please show me where I expressed such an idea. Please quote me. Looks to me like you are the one who is strawmanning here.
Honorable enough that people are willing to invest substantial money here.
The problem here is that Israel’s Arab neighbours, who presumably do not suffer the impact of Israeli occupation, are still considerably poorer than Israel.
The World Bank uses the GNI rating, described as follows:
The GNI for Israel as of last measure was $28,930.
The GNI for Syria was $2,750.
The GNI for Egypt was $2,600.
The smaller countries in the region fare better: GNI for Jordan was $4,380.
By way of comparison, the GNI for Canada was $45,560; the GNI for Mexico was $9,240.
I would put it the other way round. I think certain “trappings of statehood” are a prerequisite to prosperity. Failed states don’t become economic powerhouses.
And who wants to locate a business in the west bank, while you don’t know if tomorrow someone else will claim the land, or put a checkpoint on the road your deliveries need to go on?
Can you give me a few positive and negative examples of this?
And pretending that it’s not a failed state helps how?
I would say it depends on who is in charge. If the land is under Israeli control, you have access to Israeli courts. Note that Israeli courts regularly rule against the government and regularly rule in favor of Arab petitioners.
It’ kind of crazy concept, but most Arabs I’ve ever known don’t think in terms of more wealth, greater productivity, bigger cars. Capitalism is often seen, in a bemused way, as a western disease. Plus an awful lot is Allah’s will.
[QUOTE=Malthus]
The problem here is that Israel’s Arab neighbours, who presumably do not suffer the impact of Israeli occupation, are still considerably poorer than Israel.
[/QUOTE]
And that’s the key right there. Unless the contention is that Israel stole ALL the best land in the region and has kept all the other countries around it down. I’d say that the primary reason that Israel is relatively rich and the rest of the region is relatively poor is that Israel has a democratic government, has rule of law and is business friendly and has cultivated extensive business and trade relationships outside of their country.
I don’t think that anyone should pretend to be anything.
You’ve said that the Arabs should not be seeking the trappings of statehood but should be bettering themselves first. I’m saying it’s hard to better yourself while you’re not even a country.
If I buy the deeds to some land, I want to know that no-one will dispute my ownership for decades at least. I don’t want to be thinking WTF will happen next month.
Yeah, I’m sure that would be really reassuring to investors: a whole other country might interfere in your affairs, that has nothing to gain from your business succeeding. A country that builds settlements and checkpoints where they like.
But hey, you could always try to sue that country in their courts; some people have apparently won!
