# Why is it hard to get on the ballot in Virginia?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [February 9, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276 "2012-02-09T05:01:11Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/1 "2012-02-09T05:01:11Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641314), there’s the following discussion about the Virginia primary:
> [@Feb. 7th - Colorado, Minnesota caucuses; Missouri primary](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-7th-colorado-minnesota-caucuses-missouri-primary/612146/58):
>
> Personally, I think the Virginia thing is telling. What does it say about a candidate’s organizational skills that they can’t even meet the filing deadline for a major state like that? Do you really want to even consider anyone for President who can’t meet that basic a test of competence?
> [@Feb. 7th - Colorado, Minnesota caucuses; Missouri primary](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-7th-colorado-minnesota-caucuses-missouri-primary/612146/59):
>
> To be fair, Romney and Paul are the only ones on the ballot there. Virginia’s change of their rules for getting on the ballot seems to have thrown all the other candidates for a loop.
> [@Feb. 7th - Colorado, Minnesota caucuses; Missouri primary](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/feb-7th-colorado-minnesota-caucuses-missouri-primary/612146/60):
>
> It’s possible Virginia made its standards too strict, but no, it doesn’t speak well for the other candidates that they couldn’t get their acts together.
So what did Virginia do to make it so hard to get on the ballot?
---
### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/2 "2012-02-09T05:26:58Z")
I read a good article on it a while back that I can’t find now. But from memory: VA used to let parties vet their own candidates collection of signatures on petitions to be on the ballot, while independents had to get the State Clerk to vet them. Unsurprisingly, the state GOP didn’t really put much effort into doing any actual vetting, and so candidates would basically submit whatever the minimum signatures were without worrying about having any tossed out. An independent candidate felt this was unfair and filed a lawsuit, causing the state parties to all of a sudden start checking up on signatures.
The result was that two campaigns that had submitted excess signatures got on the ballot, Paul had extra because he has an enthusiastic base that will sign to get him on the ballot even if their sig isn’t necessary and Romney because he has infinite money and so could hire extra people to collect extra sigs. But everyone else just did the minimum and were caught flat-footed by the change.
So it wasn’t technically a rule change, rather a rule that had previously been ignored started being enforced, and it happened close enough to the submission date that it caught everyone off guard.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/3 "2012-02-09T06:13:43Z")
It’s not easy because Virginia is for **lovers,** not **sluts!**
---
### Author:  [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/4 "2012-02-09T06:14:32Z")
Short version: They made it harder to pass off fraudulent signatures (unless you have the resources to put up a bunch of extra ones, of course).
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/5 "2012-02-09T08:07:04Z")
In an earlier thread, right here:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14601949&postcount=225](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14601949&postcount=225)
I listed the Virginia ballot requirements. Here they are again.
Basically, these are the ballot access requirements in Virginia to appear on the primary:
1. 10,000 petition signatures statewide
2. At least 400 from each congressional district
3. Petition circulators must be registered or eligible to vote in Virginia
4. Signatures must be gathered using the Board of Elections form, or a doublesided reproduction (single sided stapled forms are not accepted)
5. Forms are specific to city, county, and congressional district
6. Only qualified voters may sign a petition
7. Every petition has to be sworn and notarized.
---
### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/6 "2012-02-09T14:33:17Z")
Thanks! I missed that thread. Are those requirements typical of other states as well?
---
### Author:  [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/7 "2012-02-09T16:28:58Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Thanks! I missed that thread. Are those requirements typical of other states as well?
I gather that it’s considered a pretty high bar, possibly the toughest of any state. That isn’t really the point here, though, because those requirements _haven’t changed_. They’ve been like that for years.
What has changed is the GOP’s process for validating those signatures. Prior to the lawsuit **Simplicio** mentioned, if you showed up with 10,000 signatures, the GOP would rubber stamp them, and you’d get on the ballot. After the lawsuit started, they increased the rubber-stamp threshold to 15,000–they figure it’s unlikely for more than a third of your signatures to be invalid. If you have more than 10k, but less than 15k, they go through the full validation process–verifying that the signers are real people, eligible to vote, and so on. (Even if the campaign is entirely on the level, some signatures turn out to be bogus, because people who aren’t eligible will sometimes sign.)
Romney had over 16k signatures, so his weren’t checked. Paul had around 14k, so his were presumably checked, and enough were valid to keep him over the 10k mark.
Gingrich and Perry submitted about 11k each, but apparently enough were found invalid to disqualify them–either because nearly 10% of the signatures were found to be invalid for various reasons, or because enough were invalidated in one or more districts to drop below the per-district requirement. Theoretically, one invalid signature in exactly the wrong place (a district where the campaign got exactly 400 signatures) could disqualify a candidate.\*
Bachmann, Santorum, and Huntsman didn’t submit petitions–presumably, they knew they didn’t have enough signatures to qualify, so they didn’t bother.
\*Edit: Signature counts are from [this Christian Science Monitor article](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2011/1226/Virginia-primary-Was-it-so-hard-for-Perry-and-Gingrich-to-get-on-the-ballot/%28page%29/2).
---
### Author:  [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/8 "2012-02-09T16:52:49Z")
I am curious what the state’s (in this case Virginia) interest is in how a party goes about selecting its candidates. Is it becasue the state runs the polling places? Do states have laws that regulate political parties and the way they can operate? Or are these rules created by the individual parties?
Using the example of 11k signatures in Balance’s post above. I find it odd that we can say less than 10K are valid without some concern that a thousand invalid signatures were submitted by someone. Does invalid mean “hard to read” or does it mean “totally made up?”
---
### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/9 "2012-02-09T17:01:36Z")
> [@shiftless](#):
>
> I am curious what the state’s (in this case Virginia) interest is in how a party goes about selecting its candidates. Is it becasue the state runs the polling places? Do states have laws that regulate political parties and the way they can operate?
The states run the primary election, and so put standards as to who can get on the ballot. There isn’t really any reason a party has to take advantage of the primarys to choose their candidate though (beyond whatever rules the party itself has). They can run their own party election, or caucus, or just have party leaders decide. Or even have a primary election and then totally ignore the results, as is more or less what Missouri is doing this year.
So the States interest is in how the primary elections are run, not how a party goes about selecting its candidate.
---
### Author:  [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/10 "2012-02-09T17:10:55Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#):
>
> Thanks! I missed that thread. Are those requirements typical of other states as well?
Ballot access laws vary so much that it’s hard to say what’s “typical”. New Hampshire primary access is notoriously easy; I believe they only require 100 signatures statewide which is why the NH ballot always has 20 to 30 candidates, most of whom you’ve never heard of. Illinois, a larger state than Virginia, requires only 3000 signatures statewide with no district requirement.
So yeah, Virginia is definitely toward the high end. The district requirement can be a pain in urban areas with gerrymandered districts. Most people don’t know their Congressional district. You might gather signatures, for example, at a parking lot outside a shopping mall that attracts customers from three different districts. But you have to have a separate petition sheet for each district.
---
### Author:  [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/11 "2012-02-09T17:27:01Z")
> [@shiftless](#):
>
> Using the example of 11k signatures in Balance’s post above. I find it odd that we can say less than 10K are valid without some concern that a thousand invalid signatures were submitted by someone. Does invalid mean “hard to read” or does it mean “totally made up?”
Signatures can be invalid for a lot of reasons, some of them perfectly innocent. Signers don’t necessarily know all the rules, and will sometimes sign when they shouldn’t. Other times, signers may know they aren’t supposed to sign, but the staffers (often frazzled volunteers with limited training) don’t catch it.
Consider a staffer working a mall with their petition. They approach a random shopper and ask them to sign, and the shopper says, “Sure, I’ll support that candidate.” Then the shopper…
…signs in good faith, but is registered to vote in a different district.
…signs in good faith, but has just moved to the area and isn’t registered to vote yet.
…signs in good faith and is eligible, but writes so illegibly that the validation staff can’t tell what the name is.
…signs, but is on parole and not eligible to vote.
…signs, but is too young to vote.
…signs the petition “Peter Parker” as a prank, and the volunteer doesn’t notice.
Of course, I’m perfectly willing to believe that there was some deliberate fraud as well.
---
### Author:  [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/12 "2012-02-09T20:02:34Z")
OK, so Virginia runs the primary vote process. Thanks. Ignorance beaten but unbowed. And the state wants to make sure the process is non-corrupt (I’m guessing) so they require that only real voter signatures count, so they compare the signatures to the voter rolls.
I guess I should read up on how my own state works but I’m not interested in being in either major party.
---
### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-get-on-the-ballot-in-virginia/612276/13 "2012-02-09T23:56:51Z")
That’s why you are shiftless! 😃