# Why is it hard to score at soccer? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 5, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358 "2009-11-05T00:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/61 "2009-11-06T21:49:35Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There may be a better method, but given that it will have to be something that doesn’t involve awful play from tired players, occurs on the same day at the same time, and doesn’t fundamentally change the structure of what is going on, I’m not sure that there is another easily used alternative to penalties. And, while I’m not a big fan of them, **they ARE exciting to watch…** And thus not all people are identical. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/62 "2009-11-06T21:54:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’d allow an extra sub when you got to extra time. But that is a tactical risk you take - do you keep a little in the tank for extra time or not… I don’t think one or even two extra subs is going to make a difference when everyone else is dragging one leg around. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/63 "2009-11-07T15:53:12Z")
> [@chique](#): > > I thought using Blatter as a cite for anything football-related was an automatic fail. 😉 > > I read someplace (here?) that corner kicks have been floated as an alternative to penalty kicks. Since extra time isn’t really a viable option (did anyone watch the Chelsea/ManU final in Moscow? Bodies were sprawled across the pitch for half an hour; not pretty - and shit football.) and everyone hates penalties I’d like to see someone experiment with it. I proposed the idea here on the boards [three years ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7541821#post7541821), though it was like pulling teeth in that thread to get any of the soccer fans to stop with the kneejerk handwaving and give a thoughtful response. The ones who responded to the corner kicks idea seemed to think it would either take too long or it would be too difficult to determine when each kick attempt ended. Personally I don’t think either of those objections hold any merit, much like (earlier in that thread) I didn’t think the arguments against refs noting the minute of each goal had any merit. (They didn’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/64 "2009-11-07T16:45:41Z")
How _would_ you determine when each kick attempt ended? The problem with corners is that it’s not any more representative of the actual game than penalties, and penalties at least create drama. ---
**Author:** ![Piker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@Piker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Piker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/65 "2009-11-07T17:59:39Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I proposed the idea here on the boards [three years ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7541821#post7541821), though it was like pulling teeth in that thread to get any of the soccer fans to stop with the kneejerk handwaving and give a thoughtful response. The ones who responded to the corner kicks idea seemed to think it would either take too long or it would be too difficult to determine when each kick attempt ended. Personally I don’t think either of those objections hold any merit, much like (earlier in that thread) I didn’t think the arguments against refs noting the minute of each goal had any merit. (They didn’t.) Corner kicks is interesting. As one die-hard who’s sick of this “penalty kick” tradition, and wants replays to come back (but realizes that they are not), I’m all for new ideas. One downside I would imagine of having a CK tiebreaker is that it would privilege those teams that rely on set pieces for their offense. Free kick shootouts, old MLS style shootouts, etc., all privilege one type of offense over others. I guess that is the “beauty” of the PK shootouts … penalties are something that all teams practice. My idea always has been, after 120 minutes, was to have the penalty shootout, but then play one extra period of ten minutes _afterwords_. At the conclusion of that period, if the scores remain level, then the team who won the shootout advances. In other words, give the winner of the shootout a de facto “half-goal” advantage. I got this idea after watching some of the Mexican League playoffs. In Mexico, they play a home-and-home, but the higher seed team has the tie-breaker “half-goal” advantage after 180 minutes. One side always has the impetus to push forward. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bith_Shuffle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/66 "2009-11-07T19:09:53Z")
> [@Piker](#): > > My idea always has been, after 120 minutes, was to have the penalty shootout, but then play one extra period of ten minutes _afterwords_. At the conclusion of that period, if the scores remain level, then the team who won the shootout advances. In other words, give the winner of the shootout a de facto “half-goal” advantage. > > I got this idea after watching some of the Mexican League playoffs. In Mexico, they play a home-and-home, but the higher seed team has the tie-breaker “half-goal” advantage after 180 minutes. One side always has the impetus to push forward. The side with the half-goal advantage has every incentive to waste time and maintain position. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/67 "2009-11-07T21:18:37Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I proposed the idea here on the boards [three years ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7541821#post7541821), though it was like pulling teeth in that thread to get any of the soccer fans to stop with the kneejerk handwaving and give a thoughtful response. The ones who responded to the corner kicks idea seemed to think it would either take too long or it would be too difficult to determine when each kick attempt ended. Personally I don’t think either of those objections hold any merit, much like (earlier in that thread) I didn’t think the arguments against refs noting the minute of each goal had any merit. (They didn’t.) That’s a rather crap reading of what I just read - one “hmm, maybe” response, then you were off on another tangent. Anyhow, “too long” is definitely an argument with significant merit; watching football when players have spaghetti for tendons just isn’t much fun. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How _would_ you determine when each kick attempt ended? The problem with corners is that it’s not any more representative of the actual game than penalties, and penalties at least create drama. In this little penalty-free world I’m creating for myself there wouldn’t be any extra time, corners would be sudden-death, they’d be taken as penalties are now (that is, everyone on the team gets a chance in order), and the attempt would stop when the ball left the penalty area. Simple as. I completely agree that penalties add drama; I just don’t like that a team sport suddenly goes to a one-on-one, who-fakes-out-whom-first crap shoot. At least with corners it remains a team sport. I’m not having any more luck then **Dead Badger** in that old thread in finding conversion rates, though, and three hours of corners would end up looking like a training session. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/68 "2009-11-07T21:44:42Z")
As a lifelong player (and current goalie)… With respect to cross-sectional area, it is trivially easy to hit the large goal area, but very rarely in a game does anyone get a shot with the whole goal area available. If the defense does their job, the offense will never have a full-area opportunity on goal during a game. Everything defenders and goalies do with positioning is meant to reduce that cross-section. As a defender, if I can’t block the shot directly, I can at least deny 50% of the shot angle with positioning to give my goalie less area to defend. At the higher skill levels of the game, offensive shots are threading-the-needle windows of opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/69 "2009-11-08T00:11:25Z")
Yes, one of the troubles with the idea of corner kicks is that corner kicks do not routinely lead to goals. And when they do, it is the result of luck often enough I’m not sure you’d want that simple factor to INCREASE its participation in the result of a drawn match. Most games have several corners, but it is rare for one of them to result in a score. I’d expect that the conversion rate is less than 10% for most teams. That means the first corner kick scored on would result in an end to the game in most cases. ---
**Author:** ![Piker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@Piker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Piker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358/70 "2009-11-08T23:44:10Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > The side with the half-goal advantage has every incentive to waste time and maintain position. Right. This is a feature, not a bug. The whole point of that system is to force one team to push forward, and therefore avoid situations where both sides are too risk-adverse to commit itself to go forward. It’s also a way to keep result-forcing shootouts without having them be wholly determinative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-hard-to-score-at-soccer/516358.md?page=3)