# Why is it offensive to kneel during the anthem? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435 "2017-09-27T16:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/21 "2017-09-27T17:26:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t believe you. I believe if someone kneeled during the anthem to bring attention to, say, veterans being poorly treated at the VA, you would not find it disrespectful. Well, you’d be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/22 "2017-09-27T17:32:34Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I searched, and my search function isn’t working well, so maybe this topic is already out there. > > Anyway, going down on one knee is typically a sign of respect. It what you do before a monarch, if your country has a monarch. Not before the monarch for being the monarch, at least in Spain. You only kneel or genuflect before God or His representatives in the exercise of specific functions; going down on one or both knees to be knighted or receiving a nobiliary title counted for the “representatives” bit and would be done regardless of which specific person was doing the knighting/granting. Definitely makes it very weird to hear going down on one knee be considered a sign of disrespect, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/23 "2017-09-27T17:32:40Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, you’d be wrong. Maybe. There are some issues on which people have a lot of self-reflective insight. Not so much for others. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/24 "2017-09-27T17:34:00Z")
The Flag Code in federal law is only advisory (thanks First amendment!) It does specify a societal norm for how American express respect during the anthem. From the [wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code#Pledge_of_Allegiance_and_National_Anthem), as an easy summary, it specifies: > [@](#): > > Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem: > > 1. When the flag is displayed:[23] > > 2. when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed. Intentionally slurping noodles and loudly belching both have some support in other cultures as polite behavior related to eating meals. They likely get seen as rude or offensive behaviors at a formal meal in the US though. Someone who’s fully aware of American norms and intentionally violates them while not being from those other cultures is likely to draw societal disapproval from those who support them. It’s not in the least surprising to me that other cultures forms of showing respect is seen as disrespectful by a number of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/25 "2017-09-27T17:39:57Z")
It’s pretty hard to explain the phenomenon by reference to the flag code because the people complaining don’t say anything about numerous other violations of the flag code, including at NFL games. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/26 "2017-09-27T17:43:12Z")
You know what I always wanted to know? Why in hell is the anthem played at the beginning of so many sporting events? What’s the point of that? We are, literally, the only country in the world that does this, and it happens from at least high school through professional sports. Of course, we’re probably the only so-called free nation that also makes school children pledge allegiance to a symbol of the country. It’s all a bit jingoistic. And then a friend of mine [posted this](http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/6957582/the-history-national-anthem-sports-espn-magazine) on his FB, and I learned that baseball teams were using the song (before it was the anthem) as a way of getting the audience to be more excited and vocal and stuff, and it just sort of escalated until Congress decided on it as the national anthem in 1931. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/27 "2017-09-27T17:43:48Z")
Personally I think your protests should take place on your own time rather than on the company’s time. I can’t think of any other job in which protests, particularly of sponcers, are allowed during business hours. Especially in front of customers. Can you imagine if a Wal-Mart employee started handing out anti-globalization pamphlets at the checkout stand? Or a McDonald’s employee trying to push PETA/Veganism on customers? Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/28 "2017-09-27T17:45:47Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, you’d be wrong. So are you saying the right to free speech should be curtailed in the workplace? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/29 "2017-09-27T17:48:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Maybe. There are some issues on which people have a lot of self-reflective insight. Not so much for others. Yes, that is quite true. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/30 "2017-09-27T17:49:29Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > You know what I always wanted to know? Why in hell is the anthem played at the beginning of so many sporting events? [https://lawnewz.com/high-profile/heres-what-should-really-outrage-you-about-the-nfl-the-national-anthem/](https://lawnewz.com/high-profile/heres-what-should-really-outrage-you-about-the-nfl-the-national-anthem/) ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/31 "2017-09-27T17:58:38Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > We are, literally, the only country in the world that does this Canada does too, FWIW. > [@drewder](#): > > Personally I think your protests should take place on your own time rather than on the company’s time. I can’t think of any other job in which protests, particularly of sponcers, are allowed during business hours. Especially in front of customers. > > Can you imagine if a Wal-Mart employee started handing out anti-globalization pamphlets at the checkout stand? Or a McDonald’s employee trying to push PETA/Veganism on customers? If the employer is fine with it, I don’t see a problem. Also in this case, playing the anthem is already introducing a political element aside from any protests. Also, I don’t think that kneeling specifically is what’s bothering people. If players were turning their backs, or just continuing on without standing for the anthem, I think the reaction would be similar. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/32 "2017-09-27T18:10:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So are you saying the right to free speech should be curtailed in the workplace? Well, yeah. Your boss does in fact have the right to control what you say while on the clock, and to an extent off it. Doctors have to follow HIPAA rules. They can’t gossip about patients, and claim it’s “free speech.” Free speech applies only to the government. The government cannot curtail what you say. (And even then, if your body is in the government’s military uniform, it sure the hell can curtail what you say.) Your boss can include what you are allowed to talk about in your job description, and saying bad things about your workplace while on the clock is frowned upon by pretty much every workplace anywhere. Your boss can also tell you to keep your politics or your religion out of the workplace if it’s hurting business. If you work at the Gap, and decide to put little Jesus pamphlets for your church in the pockets of all the clothes, that’s probably going to get you fired fast, and I wouldn’t try arguing “free speech,” or “freedom of religion,” either. The example about PETA or veganism at McDonald’s is a good example as well. I’ll bet you don’t last long if you are doing that. You might get one warning to cut it out, and you’d better take it. But even if your cause isn’t in direct opposition to the business, it isn’t appropriate. If your cause is biking to work to cut down carbon emissions, your manager at McDonald’s is probably still going to tell you to stop with the pamphlets. I don’t know enough about football to say whether the players are on their own time before the game has actually started (when the anthem is playing), but if they are in uniform, I’d say probably not. However, like I said, I don’t know anything about football, and don’t care. I just know that if I did care, I’d be confused about the message someone who went down on one knee during the anthem was sending? Is he proposing to the country? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/33 "2017-09-27T18:14:08Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Well, yeah. Your boss does in fact have the right to control what you say while on the clock, and to an extent off it. Doctors have to follow HIPAA rules. They can’t gossip about patients, and claim it’s “free speech.” I agree. But others seem to think that freedom of speech shouldn’t apply in the workplace, even when not specifically disallowed, as in the NFL protests. I was wondering if **billfish678** thought that way as well. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/34 "2017-09-27T18:15:01Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > For this reason. FIRST, it would be kinda nice if politics could be left outa some shit. I get it - some people against protesting say that protesting should only be allowed when it doesn’t interfere with their football (or whatever). When it doesn’t interfere with what they like. What good a protest is that? In that case, the people that need to see it, the people that, if they understand why the protest is happening, might be able to effect change, will never see it. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/35 "2017-09-27T18:57:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s pretty hard to explain the phenomenon by reference to the flag code because the people complaining don’t say anything about numerous other violations of the flag code, including at NFL games. I’d agree most don’t know the details…or that it exists. 😛 I can’t recall any kind of event where they announced they were about to play the anthem without prompting the standing piece, though. It’s hard to ignore the Flag Code as underlying what prompts announcers make right before the National Anthem is played. Doing something different right after being prompted is pretty hard to explain away in terms that the OP asked about. It’s not a mixed message or an alternative show of respect because other cultures show respect that way. Being on the field, right after the announcer prompts “Please stand for the National Anthem.” and doing something else is both obvious and clear. I don’t know all the intricacies of formal dining occasions. If my host asks at the end of the meal that I not burp, whether I know where that norm stems from, it’s perfectly clear what their social expectations are. If I respond seconds later with a wall shaking belch, it’s hard to confuse that with appreciation. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/36 "2017-09-27T19:03:48Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > You know what I always wanted to know? Why in hell is the anthem played at the beginning of so many sporting events? What’s the point of that? We are, literally, the only country in the world that does this, and it happens from at least high school through professional sports. Of course, we’re probably the only so-called free nation that also makes school children pledge allegiance to a symbol of the country. It’s all a bit jingoistic. Nope, I’ve been to Irish Gaelic Football matches and they play the anthem there as well. What’s always pissed me off is the people who scream out “O”, for Orioles, in the Maryland area. Not only does it happen at the game, but it happens at other events too in the area. Though it is kinda funny to hear it at a Nats game. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/37 "2017-09-27T19:05:24Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > I’d agree most don’t know the details…or that it exists. 😛 I can’t recall any kind of event where they announced they were about to play the anthem without prompting the standing piece, though. It’s hard to ignore the Flag Code as underlying what prompts announcers make right before the National Anthem is played. > > Doing something different right after being prompted is pretty hard to explain away in terms that the OP asked about. It’s not a mixed message or an alternative show of respect because other cultures show respect that way. Being on the field, right after the announcer prompts “Please stand for the National Anthem.” and doing something else is both obvious and clear. I don’t know all the intricacies of formal dining occasions. If my host asks at the end of the meal that I not burp, whether I know where that norm stems from, it’s perfectly clear what their social expectations are. If I respond seconds later with a wall shaking belch, it’s hard to confuse that with appreciation. Good points, but I think the force of your point might ultimately be a little circular. Let’s take your “burp” example. Suppose instead that your host asks at the end of the meal that you say “Thank you” to the chef who will come out of the kitchen. When that happens, instead of saying “thank you,” you say “muchas gracias,” as a gesture of solidarity to the Guatemalan server. Have you been disrespectful? Hard to say, I think. In my view, the kneeling is basically that scenario. Kneeling is a gesture of respect. Indeed, Kap chose to kneel because, in conversation with a military veteran, they agreed that kneeling instead of sitting would make the point without being disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/38 "2017-09-27T20:15:38Z")
I am corrected about other countries playing their national anthem before sporting events. I still think it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/39 "2017-09-27T20:21:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I agree. But others seem to think that freedom of speech shouldn’t apply in the workplace, even when not specifically disallowed, as in the NFL protests. I was wondering if **billfish678** thought that way as well. Free speech on your own time IMO in case you were wondering. Jesus Christ…I saw an article the other day about the new Star Trek discovery series…now I’m not sure WHAT it was about…because I did not click on the piece of shit…but TRUMP was in the title… God damn. I can’t read an article about a new star trek series and not get fucking politics involved? Maybe the new klingons had bad tuopees our sumtin. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435/40 "2017-09-27T20:24:23Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Personally I think your protests should take place on your own time rather than on the company’s time. I can’t think of any other job in which protests, particularly of sponcers, are allowed during business hours. Especially in front of customers. During labor actions, pre-strike, there are often protests in front of the workplace. As for work hours, players are salaried. If one of them went to a knee to protest during a play, that’s one thing, but the playing of the anthem is not exactly work time. Someone who talked with a neighbor, or gave the flag a finger, or mugged, might be showing disrespect. Going down on a knee, silently, doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-offensive-to-kneel-during-the-anthem/797435.md?page=3)