Why is it OK to be bad at math?

[snermy]

Actually, I think it’s okay in society to be bad at lots of things besides math.

Like people who refuse to learn how to change a tire or check their oil…they’re “bad with mechanical stuff”. Or people who refuse to learn extremely basic, boil-water type cooking skills…they “just can’t cook”.

About the only area that has a real social stigma is words/reading. You don’t get that large group of people identifying as, “well, I’m just illiterate”. (Though the anti-grammar group would be covered by everybody who’s “733T” “just keeping it real”, etc … )

That’s not necessarily a bad thing. It seems to be healthy to focus on your strengths not your weaknesses (I’ve read that depressive people have a basic difficulting doing that -cite-,but who’s to say which comes first, the depression or the realistic-but-discouraging self-image? Personally, I’d rather have an accurate view of myself, but then again, I tend to be a bit depressive if I don’t exercise at lot…)

But not having enough math to be able to balance your check book, or make sensible purchasing decisionis shouldn’t be okay. I know several people who fall in that category with absolutely no…not shame, but no concern.

That does bother me. Someone’s financial house is totally screwed up and they can’t be bothered to figure out why

People who do this are missing a basic life skill. There shouldn’t be a stigma, but why ignore it?
Wonder how many bankruptcies and finanacial messes involve people who think math is not important and had very little idea what financial situation they were in…or * would be in* in 10 years if they stay with the same trends.

My mom identifies as bad at math but what she means is bad at arithmetic. She never even attempted anything beyond algebra (liberal arts French/Spanish major).

I had trouble with arithmetic too in grade school because my learning style is not to memorize details, but to get the big picture, and then slot the details in where they fit… Math, you can’t do that as much because they start with the basic rules and results of arithmetic to proceed to the concept part. I struggled in math until 6th grade, when I finally got a teacher who managed to explain it to me ( I could barely long-divide at that point). And I don’t think it’s any coincidence that he stressed a lot of short-cuts, and “what we’re really doing here” type explanations. Because I would get bogged down in the long columns of numbers, and miss the point.
Did fine in high school and college though I didn’t like calculus much.
I was going to ask how numbers theory is more useful/important than foreign language/art etc but DSeid already said it very well

*Originally posted by DSeid *
**I’ve heard the comparison made that the math that most of us learn, up to perhaps calculus, is like learning grammar and spelling but never reading any real literature or poetry, or learning the scales but never playing any real music. With reading we all have at least read some literature so we know that it is a learnable skill for the masses. With math, the really good stuff is beyond the reach of most of us (myself included, I just know that it is there) BTW, I am bad at music and that is “okay” too. Artistic talent is also considered the same way. As is an affinity for learning foreign languages. **

Exactly !

[Fretful_Porpentine]

someone here (sorry, can’t remember the name) mentioned a culture of failure–basically, parents tell their kids that they were bad at math, and the kids get the message that it’s OK to be bad at math.

That’d be me. Actually, it’s not just that parents (and other adults) imply that it’s OK to be bad at math, they send the message that it’s normal to dislike math. If a child hates reading, most parents will make an active effort to change his attitude; with math it’s just par for the course.

Poor teaching plays a huge part as well – in the lower grades, many teachers are math-phobic themselves, and in junior high and high school, they often do exactly what rsa describes;

I think a major problem is that many math texts and math teachers approach the subject as if everyone has that special innate math ability. Just as some people can easily learn other languages or have an innate ability for musical talent, some people have a natural understanding of the language of math while others do not.

This may not be the case today, but when I was in school math texts were basically a bunch of equations with little if any explanation.

What we need are teachers who genuinely like math and can convey a sense of enthusiasm about their subject, but also understand where a non-mathematically gifted student is likely to struggle and can explain concepts in clear, concrete terms. I was lucky enough to have a couple of teachers like this in high school, who completely transformed my attitude toward math in less than two years, but such people are rare. Most math classes consist of the teacher working examples on the board for forty minutes and the students cowering behind their textbooks hoping they won’t be called on. Deathly stuff.

I’ve read somewhere (no cite, sorry) that math requires similar mental abilities to foreign language learning. If this is true, I think it’s revealing that I took to Spanish and German almost instantly, but took years to learn to like math. Why? Because we were always doing things in my high school language classes – playing games, giving mini-presentations, making up skits, hearing about Sra. Hostetter’s student days in Madrid (and thinking it would be pretty cool if we could go to Madrid some day). I don’t see any reason why math can’t be taught the same way, with plenty of student participation and an eye to practical applications.

[Freudian_Slit]

I’ve been pretty good at math, though it’s not exactly my favorite class. I think it does depend on the teacher- last year, I had a particularly bad one…<sigh>

This year though, one of the things our math teacher mentioned that a lot of (math) teachers tend to instruct in sort of a narrow, constricted way, and if they’ve made a mistake or have been unable to clearly impart knowledge onto students, they often make it seem like its the students’ fault for not knowing. Which I’ve definitely seen. Maybe humanities teachers are more flexible and open-minded, but I can recall occasionally feeling dumb for making mistakes. In someone whose natural abilities really don’t fall to math, this could be rather fatal to their mathematical career, so to speak.

And it’s true that many teachers really don’t make it fun, like you said, Fretful Porpentine. The teacher I had this year was really good, but a lot of times this hasn’t been the case. Looking back on all my other classes, I can remember school trips, skits, simulations, labs, discussions, or games. Not every day or anything, but we did sometimes have fun. In math, it’s usually just sit and learn all the time- and in a subject like this, I think it can be necessary. And in elementary school, it was mainly just learn the facts. We did learn why, but looking back, probably most people just see a rigid and cold subject. Maybe people could change that.

[doreen]

I don’t know that there is less social stigma directed at people who are not good in math compared to other subjects.There is a big difference between not being able to pass a formal algera or geometry class and not being able to make change or add two three digit numbers. But there is also a big difference between being illiterate and reading nothing but the tabloid newspaper,TV guide and maybe romance novels.

[Boyo_Jim]

Math was created to model the real world.

I’m not too crazy about the real world, so why should I gove a rat’s ass about math, so long as I can find a niche in society where I can support myself without it.

[NightRabbit]

Well yojimboguy, why should you give a rat’s ass about literature, or science, or anything else for that matter?

I really don’t know how to answer that genius of a question :rolleyes: Maybe I got whooshed there, but anyway…

In regards to the OP, think about how kids who are wonderful at math are treated- people think they’re geniuses. If you skip a grade in English, it’s pretty good. But if you skip grades in math, then wow! By perpetuating the idea that math is “natural” and that one either has the ability or doesn’t, then the logical conclusion to that is a permissive attitude if one doesn’t have that magical mathematical spark.

I also think this line of thinking is often translated into the rift between “professional” and “liberal arts” degrees. Think about the difference in perception between a math major and a lit major… it’s often assumed that “anyone” can major in english, it takes someone of exceptional capacity to major in math.

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by yojimboguy *
Math was created to model the real world.

I’m not too crazy about the real world, so why should I gove a rat’s ass about math, so long as I can find a niche in society where I can support myself without it. **

Hell, I wish all my clients were like you. All I would have to do is show up with some pretty PowerPoint slides, mumble some giberish, show you some arbitrary numbers and convince you to shell out $1 M in consulting fees.

[pepperlandgirl]

I can do algebra, balance my checkbook, calculate fractions, percents, decimals, do long division, graph a point. IOW, I can function on a daily basis with math. It’s the larger concepts that lose me. How good should the average person be at math? I took Calculus my Sr year and I’ll be damned if I can remember any of it. Took it a full year and I vaguely remember what a derivitive is. Of course I studied hard—had to keep that ol A-average. So, I repeat, how good at math should a person be?

[even_sven]

I’ll have to agree with Guin on this one…

My personal theory is that math is all a system that happens to work out, but not neccesarily because it is right. I have no doubts that math works, and all the equations and stuff fits together, but just because something is coherent doesn’t mean it is truth. It could all just be a big coincidence =).

Okay, maybe that is a bit of a stretch…

But really, you don’t use a lot of math in everyday life, or even most professions. What you do use is a lot of educated guesses and reasonable estimations. Understanding and applying the concepts behind most math is pretty easy to do without ever actually working through an equation. It is perfectly possible to make reasonable purchases, etc. without ever actually working things precisely on paper.

But there isn’t a lot of middle ground with academic math. Either you come up with the right number or you don’t. Unlike real-life math, close doesn’t count. Not many people are going to spend the time to come up with an exact answer when 99% of the time, close enough is good enough. So academic math is something that is nice to know, but which isn’t really seen as essential to living in this culture.

[fluiddruid]

Originally posted by snermy *
**
Like people who refuse to learn how to change a tire or check their oil…they’re “bad with mechanical stuff”. Or people who refuse to learn extremely basic, boil-water type cooking skills…they “just can’t cook”*

I don’t think this is fair. It’s possible not to know something without actively trying to be ignorant of it. I don’t know how to change a tire, but I would like to learn – it’s just that my parents weren’t knowledgeable of cars, either, and there’s really not an obvious way to just pick this sort of thing up (especially as a female). I say I’m not good with cars because I really don’t know much about them, not because I don’t want to be. In fact, I do. I’ve commented many times that I wish there were things like basic auto mechanics classes commonly available.

[pldennison]

even sven, aren’t you majoring in film? Do you plan to direct any movies? If so, you’re going to need to understand the mathematical relationships between the diamater and focal length of different camera lenses, and how they affect what appears on the film.

You’re going to need to understand what will happen if you shoot at any speed besides 24fps.

If you ever are involved in shooting miniatures or models, you’ll need to understand why you have to shoot them at speeds higher than 24fps, and what the formula is that gives you the desired frame rate from the scale of the model to the object it depicts.

[snermy]

FluidDruid, good point-- since we don’t have required courses on cars and boiling water (if you don’t count chemistry;)), one could just not have happened to learn some of that stuff. Willfull ignorance is exactly what I meant though…It’s one thing if you’ve been lucky enough to have never been stuck with a flat, it’s another for someone who’s been driving for 10 years, has had multiple opportunities to learn, and just refuses to.

I do see a difference between knowing how to change a tire, and knowing how to add. Arithmetic takes a lot longer to get a useful amount of knowledge.

Changing a tire is really simple (and it’s a shame everyone’s parents don’t take a half hour and teach it as part of learning how to drive), I can explain it in about 30 second (so’s not to hijack this further, here it is in another thread.)

But I know lots of other women who just don’t do any car stuff (and a few guys…don’t know if they know more, or just don’t admit it when they don’t know…),regardless of how useful, and societally, that is just as accepted not having anything to do with math.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that societally it’s even more okay for women to be bad at math than men?

[ultrafilter]

All right, there’s a lot to respond to here. If I misattribute a quote, or miscapitalize someone’s name, I’m very sorry.

*Originally posted by DSeid *
**I’ve heard the comparison made that the math that most of us learn, up to perhaps calculus, is like learning grammar and spelling but never reading any real literature or poetry, or learning the scales but never playing any real music. With reading we all have at least read some literature so we know that it is a learnable skill for the masses. With math, the really good stuff is beyond the reach of most of us (myself included, I just know that it is there) BTW, I am bad at music and that is “okay” too. Artistic talent is also considered the same way. As is an affinity for learning foreign languages. **

That is a very fair comparison. FWIW, I’m also horrible at music.

Originally posteb by rsa
**I think a major problem is that many math texts and math teachers approach the subject as if everyone has that special innate math ability. Just as some people can easily learn other languages or have an innate ability for musical talent, some people have a natural understanding of the language of math while others do not.

This may not be the case today, but when I was in school math texts were basically a bunch of equations with little if any explanation. I don’t think they even used complete sentences. **

It depends on the level of the book. Advanced math texts are like what you describe, but lower-level math books aren’t–there are usually between five and ten pages of explanation and sample problems for each section. Of course, the sample problems are very basic, so they don’t do a good job of teaching you how to do an advanced problem.

Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine
**What we need are teachers who genuinely like math and can convey a sense of enthusiasm about their subject, but also understand where a non-mathematically gifted student is likely to struggle and can explain concepts in clear, concrete terms. I was lucky enough to have a couple of teachers like this in high school, who completely transformed my attitude toward math in less than two years, but such people are rare. Most math classes consist of the teacher working examples on the board for forty minutes and the students cowering behind their textbooks hoping they won’t be called on. Deathly stuff. **

Yeah, it’d be wonderful if we all had teachers like that. Unfortunately, such people are very few and far between.

Originally posted by even sven
But really, you don’t use a lot of math in everyday life, or even most professions. What you do use is a lot of educated guesses and reasonable estimations. Understanding and applying the concepts behind most math is pretty easy to do without ever actually working through an equation. It is perfectly possible to make reasonable purchases, etc. without ever actually working things precisely on paper.

Never been around any engineers, statisticians, consultants, or scientists? While there are a lot of professions where you can get by with rough estimates, the vast majority of professional positions do require good math skills.

Originally posted by pepperlandgirl
I can do algebra, balance my checkbook, calculate fractions, percents, decimals, do long division, graph a point. IOW, I can function on a daily basis with math. It’s the larger concepts that lose me. How good should the average person be at math? I took Calculus my Sr year and I’ll be damned if I can remember any of it. Took it a full year and I vaguely remember what a derivitive is. Of course I studied hard—had to keep that ol A-average. So, I repeat, how good at math should a person be?

If you can function on a daily basis, and you don’t hate math, and you could learn a new mathematical concept if you had to, I’d say you’re doing all right.

Originally posted by jayjay
**I honestly think that the only thing that kept me from dropping Heinlein like a hot potato the first time I read that quote was that I only came across it after having already delved fairly deeply into his writing. Even then, it lit my fuse for days.

I’m innumerate. That doesn’t mean I’m lazy, or stupid, or not willing to try to learn. It means that I did try, for years, to understand mathematics other than arithmetic and very basic geometry and algebra. I don’t get it!**

I don’t think anyone agrees with the full sentiment of the Heinlein quote; it’s one of those extreme positions that resonates somewhat with certain people, but definitely doesn’t express their feelings accurately. If you really put forth your best effort, then I think that’s enough–for some people, learning a particular skill/way of thinking requires more effort than is reasonable.

[DSeid]

You know, in my job I’ve had the privlege of being able to follow kids from preschool years into High School and I’ve noticed something -

There are kids who from early toddlerhood have an affinity for blocks and Legos and puzzles. In early school years they say they like science best but dislike math classes. Still by late middle school and High School they love math.

I’ve always put this together as being that they have a natural talent for math, but that the early years of math education doesn’t appeal to it. For those years math is learned like a verbal skill, memorizing lists of facts, and learning correct techniques. It isn’t until they get to algebra and puzzle solving that they start to enjoy it at all. And when they get to the visual imaging part with geometry they turn on.

FWIW

Another aside. Those who are interested may find something of value in Brian Butterworth’s The Mathematical Brain. He reviews some evidence for an inate hardwired section of the brain that deals with “numerousity” and discusses various cases of true dyscalcula, but then goes on to say that most people who are bad at math are bad just because they haven’t been taught properly. {Of couse their is lot more to the inate skills of high level math than numerousity …)

One last aside. I vaugely remember a study that both tested kids’ math skills and simultaneously asked them to rank how good they were at math. Funny thing. The best scoring quartile ranked their skills fairly low, and the lower quartile ranked their skills fairly high. Wish I had the cite.

[Guinastasia]

All kidding aside, I do agree that math is necessary. I, however, hate it with a passion.

I think a lot of times, it’s how math is taught. I had a professor in community college who loved math. He couldn’t understand that sometimes his students did not only NOT love math, but also had a lot of trouble with it. We’d ask him to slow down, and he would, but he would pout and say, “But I want to get to the GOOD stuff!”

It was almost as if you were a dummy, or slow, or stupid if you didn’t get it.

I dropped the class, (Intermediate Algebra, FYI), and then took it again the following semester with a different professor. I believe that time I managed a B. This professor was very understanding and made an effort to explain things to those who were confused.

[ultrafilter]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**I think a lot of times, it’s how math is taught. I had a professor in community college who loved math. He couldn’t understand that sometimes his students did not only NOT love math, but also had a lot of trouble with it. We’d ask him to slow down, and he would, but he would pout and say, “But I want to get to the GOOD stuff!”

It was almost as if you were a dummy, or slow, or stupid if you didn’t get it.**

For a lot of professors (in any subject, really), it’s very hard to remember that the students don’t know what you know. You just notice it more in disciplines like math, or science.

[gex_gex]

I never get it when maths type people talk about ‘the good stuff’, or ‘the beauty of mathematics’.

and i think to myself: 'they’re just patterns. nothing amazing or wonderous. patterns. sure sin^2(x) + cos^2(x)=1 (this may or may not be true, i’m bad at maths, but it still doesn’t mean anything to me. you’re trying to tell me that patterns and coincidences compare to the finest use of language, art, music and all? i look at a monet, and i think ‘dude, that’s fine’.

(well, actually i think of the clueless quote, where… i’m getting distracted)

but i look at a whole series of equations where the answer turns out to be one, and i think ‘dude, why’d we have to go to all that trouble?’

seems maths is either perplexing or boring. often both.
yeah… so maths. it’s ok to be bad at because beyond simple stuff, it just isn’t useful.

people live in society. someone studies 1984, hell someone even reads 1984, and they gain a huge understanding of the workings of human society. you teach someone calculus, and what can they do? find the gradient of the tangent to a curve at (x,y).

hey, i’m glad someone can do it, but i’m equally glad that that someone isn’t me.

i guess my main argument then, is

originally posted by guinistasia
Because math is evil. That’s why.

Math is satanic, and vulgar and obscene and it should be avoided at all costs.

That’s why.

[gex_gex]

it’s ok to be bad at because beyond simple stuff, it just isn’t useful.

clarification: useful in everyday life, i mean. for most people. unless it’s their job.

[rsa]

*Originally posted by gex gex *
I never get it when maths type people talk about ‘the good stuff’, or ‘the beauty of mathematics’.

and i think to myself: 'they’re just patterns. nothing amazing or wonderous. patterns.

That’s just so wrong. Check out the book I mentioned earlier.

The Language of Mathematics: Making the Invisible Visible

[Weird_AL_Einstein]

Hey hey! I just remembered, this is GD, so…

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
Because math is evil.

Cite?

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**Math is satanic, **

Cite?

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
and vulgar

Cite?

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
and obscene

Cite?

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**and it should be avoided at all costs.
**

Cite?
I gotta remember not to enjoy that too much