# Why is it sad when a language dies out? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695 "2015-08-01T00:25:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/81 "2015-08-02T19:06:25Z")
I don’t know why you are trying so hard to not understand this. I am not saying that most French people create English content. I never said that. What I said is that lots of them do, and they are not native speakers. Lots of French, Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indonesians and even Chinese. Lots and lots of lots, of them create content in English. Not most. Lots. Now, how many non-native Mandarin speakers are out there creating content in Mandarin? Comparing how many native speakers of English there are to how many native Mandarin speakers there are is not a a good way of gauging which language is going to have more content on the internet. What is going to count is how many people in the world are creating content in those languages. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/82 "2015-08-02T19:19:18Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > No. > > Take my grandmother. Her parents insisted that she speak English, not Italian, because they didn’t want her to have the same experiences they did: having a strong accent and limited ability in English, and the concommitant discrimination and difficulty. They were utterly ignorant of the differences between child and adult language acquisition, and of the fact that you can be natively bilingual. It was so far outside their experience that it was inconceivable. They did not know what they were doing, though their motives were good. > > Most people are more worried about earning a living than managing their children’s language acquisition. Children naturally pick up whatever languages are in their speech community, but if the home language is different from the community language, they acquire a passive understanding of the heritage language but cannot use it effectively, and certainly cannot pass it on. Most people who acquire a second language as adults are too busy trying to make a living to be able to take the time to ensure that their kids retain the heritage language, and too ignorant about linguistics to be able to assess the decision. > > It takes a special level of self-hatred to be glad to be cut off from your heritage. The other thing is that Reality Intrudes. You mentioned Italian. I live in an area with a large Italian-American population. Drive around the county and you’ll see lots of mailboxes with names like Rinaldi, Carabillo, Cusumano, etc. You’ll see some Italian flags and cutesy signs like “Parking for Italians Only.” –The people who live in these houses (at least the ones I know–I don’t imagine it’s any different for those I don’t) are proud of their Italian heritage. But they speak, read, write, and understand little if any Italian. Why is this? Well, it’s not just that their grandparents or great-grandparents, like mine (see previous post) or yours made a conscious decision not to pass the language along, though they may have done that. It’s also the result of a whole bunch of lifestyle decisions that add up over the years. It goes something like this: \*The first generation comes to the US and settles in the Little Italy section of the city where I live. \*Their kids grow up bilingual; they are in and out of neighbors’ houses, local stores, etc., and they use Italian there and at family gatherings, but they use English in school and in the wider world. \*When the second generation grows up, they serve in the military, they go off to college. They want a bigger house, a better job. Some of them stay in the neighborhood and marry the kid next door, but a lot of them don’t. They move to the suburbs, they move to a new town altogether; they marry someone Italian who’s already more assimilated, or someone Irish, or someone with roots in Poland, China, Greece. \*When you don’t live in Little Italy any more, the only reinforcement of the language is at home and at occasional family gatherings and when you go back to visit. When you marry a Pole or a person from Ireland, it’s exclusively on you to pass the Italian language on to the next generation. It’s easy to skip it–and even if you do it, the children get the sense that Italian is not as important or as valued as English. \*Same for the third generation, only in spades. I’m sure there are exceptions, Americans who have successfully taught their children the language used by their grandparents or great-grandparents and made it a real, living concern. But I don’t think there are very many. To preserve Italian (in this scenario) as a flourishing, living language, there has to be more than the desire to do so. With every step away from Little Italy and all that it stands for, it becomes harder and harder to keep Italian going as an organic part of the family life. I’m sure you’re not arguing that Italians in my community should be kept in Little Italy no matter what…but in some ways that is the only way to do it! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/83 "2015-08-02T19:23:18Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And you think that non native English speakers typically publish stuff in English? In the science world they do - more and more science articles are published in English these days rather than some other language. It wasn’t always that way - when my dad was in college he was required to learn something called “scientific German” because in those days German served the role in science that English does today. French did at one time, too, lots of very old science was published in French. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/84 "2015-08-02T19:34:06Z")
**AnaMen** , your comment about “those poor fools” suggests you completely misread my post. My great-grandparents didn’t know certain things about how language works. That says absolutely nothing about their intelligence (they were quite smart) or about their worth as human beings (they were good, hard-working, loving people). All I’m saying is that they, like the culture that surrounded them, made decisions based on ignorance. And yes, **Ulf** , being from what had become an Axis nation in WWII also played a part. I don’t blame them for it—what would be the point? They did what they thought was best, based on the information they had. It would be unreasonable to expect more than that. Frankly, keeping their children alive and fed through the depression was a hell of a lot more important than worrying about language. But, in hindsight, it’s not something to celebrate, either: it’s just a thing that happened. And finally, **AnaMen** , the language IS becoming extinct: the specific “dialect,” which is not mutually intelligible with standard Italian, is moribund. Children learn the standard language in school, and the village speech is heavily stigmatized. Something to bring a little joy to your day! ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/85 "2015-08-02T19:44:12Z")
What a contrast parts of this thread are to a hundred years ago when American Indian children were sent to mission schools, boarding schools, etc where they were routinely beaten for speaking their native language. Before some nitwit comes along to say so, I don’t think it was done for the _good_ of the children so much as due to racism, oppression and brutality. It was devastating to many cultures but fuck them, huh? ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/86 "2015-08-02T19:51:04Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **AnaMen** , your comment about “those poor fools” suggests you completely misread my post. My great-grandparents didn’t know certain things about how language works. That says absolutely nothing about their intelligence (they were quite smart) or about their worth as human beings (they were good, hard-working, loving people). All I’m saying is that they, like the culture that surrounded them, made decisions based on ignorance. And yes, **Ulf** , being from what had become an Axis nation in WWII also played a part. > > I don’t blame them for it—what would be the point? They did what they thought was best, based on the information they had. It would be unreasonable to expect more than that. Frankly, keeping their children alive and fed through the depression was a hell of a lot more important than worrying about language. But, in hindsight, it’s not something to celebrate, either: it’s just a thing that happened. > > And finally, **AnaMen** , the language IS becoming extinct: the specific “dialect,” which is not mutually intelligible with standard Italian, is moribund. Children learn the standard language in school, and the village speech is heavily stigmatized. Something to bring a little joy to your day! This does please me. I spent a couple of years studying Italian, but it was not worth continuing, given its limited usefulness. It isn’t going to die off in my lifetime though, more’s the pity. Preserving a language generally means preserving cultural traditions like reproducing only with people from the same culture and preserving discriminatory gender roles. These are things that cannot be flung aside fast enough for my taste. Your relatives left the old country in favor of a fresh start, yet you deem them ignorant. They knew both cultures and chose, whereas you are the one ignorant of the reality they purposely left behind. The idea that one being happy not to bear an unwelcome heritage is “self-hating” is especially funny to me, as I could not be more proud of my parent for eschewing the ignorant religious culture they were born into and escaping. There is nothing anyone might say in that language that I am interested in hearing. Never do I wish relatives could proselytise to me in their native tongue, although they are lovely people in their own right. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/87 "2015-08-02T20:07:30Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Your relatives left the old country in favor of a fresh start, yet you deem them ignorant. They knew both cultures and chose, whereas you are the one ignorant of the reality they purposely left behind… I didn’t read his comment that way - they were _ignorant of language acquisition_, which is one tiny slice of human knowledge and in no way implies they were otherwise ignorant in general. It used to be “common wisdom” that attempting to teach a child two languages as an infant would “confuse” them, or delay language development. People’s choices were affected by such things, as well as such charming cultural practices as literally beating children in school for using their minority home language. They didn’t make their decisions in a vacuum, and they didn’t know everything we now do. If they were arriving in a new land today they might well make different choices. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/88 "2015-08-02T20:37:20Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Your relatives left the old country in favor of a fresh start, yet you deem them ignorant. They knew both cultures and chose, whereas you are the one ignorant of the reality they purposely left behind. Thanks, **Broomstick**. Yes, I meant “ignornant” in the literal sense of “not knowing,” in this case not knowing specific things about language; it’s a statement of fact, not a value judgement. There are a great many things that they knew of which I’m ignorant. Both language and culture change, anyway. It’s not possible to preserve a culture in amber. Just because a culture and its language were sexist in 1950 doesn’t mean they will be that way in 2050. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/89 "2015-08-02T20:44:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I didn’t read his comment that way - they were _ignorant of language acquisition_, which is one tiny slice of human knowledge and in no way implies they were otherwise ignorant in general. > > It used to be “common wisdom” that attempting to teach a child two languages as an infant would “confuse” them, or delay language development. People’s choices were affected by such things, as well as such charming cultural practices as literally beating children in school for using their minority home language. They didn’t make their decisions in a vacuum, and they didn’t know everything we now do. If they were arriving in a new land today they might well make different choices. In my experience, (and this is not just in the US) - first generation immigrants retain their native tongue forever. - second generation - hit or miss, depending on whether both parents speak the language, how well, and whether any effort is expended on the kids learning the language. - third generation, almost always, do not speak the language - any more than a few words here and there. - forth generation usually don’t even know what language it is that they don’t speak. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/90 "2015-08-02T21:17:48Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > It takes a special level of self-hatred to be glad to be cut off from your heritage. And that doesn’t strike you as a bigoted view of the subject? A person is not their ancestry, and it is not “self-hatred” to not choose to associate yourself with the views held by another person, even if that person is your parent. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/91 "2015-08-02T21:29:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And that doesn’t strike you as a bigoted view of the subject? A person is not their ancestry, and it is not “self-hatred” to not choose to associate yourself with the views held by another person, even if that person is your parent. It is totally reasonable to cut yourself off from whatever you decide is not a positive aspect of your life: toxic family, unpleasant culture, mildly annoying traditional customs, whatever. I’ve done it myself, and I’m sure we all have. What I mean is that when someone else cuts off access to something on your behalf, that seems like something that a normal person would feel neutral to negative about—most people don’t much care, and why should they? I have large chunks of my heritage for which I have zero interest. Other people feel a bit of wistfulness about it: “if only it weren’t so!” But it is so, and you move on. Maybe study it a bit if you care that much. What was exhibited earlier in this thread was an active pleasure at being cut off from the heritage language. What I find difficult to understand is the combination of ignorance due to someone else’s decision making, and the strong positive feelings about that. It could be that there’s just more to it than we’ve seen here. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/92 "2015-08-02T21:41:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I didn’t read his comment that way - they were _ignorant of language acquisition_, which is one tiny slice of human knowledge and in no way implies they were otherwise ignorant in general. > > It used to be “common wisdom” that attempting to teach a child two languages as an infant would “confuse” them, or delay language development. People’s choices were affected by such things, as well as such charming cultural practices as literally beating children in school for using their minority home language. They didn’t make their decisions in a vacuum, and they didn’t know everything we now do. If they were arriving in a new land today they might well make different choices. Yes, that’s the ignorance he said these people–people who successfully acquired a new language–suffered from. There is no reason to assume they did not know exactly what they were doing. Teaching a child two languages does typically delay language acquisition, not that it matters. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/93 "2015-08-02T21:43:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > And that doesn’t strike you as a bigoted view of the subject? A person is not their ancestry, and it is not “self-hatred” to not choose to associate yourself with the views held by another person, even if that person is your parent. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/94 "2015-08-02T21:58:42Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Yes, that’s the ignorance he said these people–people who successfully acquired a new language–suffered from. There is no reason to assume they did not know exactly what they were doing. There is a distinct difference between language acquisition in infants/toddlers, young children before puberty, and adults. Acquiring a language at one point in life does not give you insight into doing so at another point in life. > [@](#): > > Teaching a child two languages does typically delay language acquisition, not that it matters. Cite, please. Of course, if it doesn’t matter why worry about it? There’s quite a range of “normal” ages for language landmarks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/95 "2015-08-03T00:02:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know why you are trying so hard to not understand this. I am not saying that most French people create English content. I never said that. What I said is that lots of them do, and they are not native speakers. Lots of French, Germans, Swedes, Egyptians, Indonesians and even Chinese. Lots and lots of lots, of them create content in English. Not most. Lots. Hmm, yes, I understand now. You have a point. For some reason, I failed to add the English content created by Chinese to the English content created by French to the English content created by Swedes, and so on… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/96 "2015-08-03T00:09:46Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > The other thing is that Reality Intrudes. You mentioned Italian. I live in an area with a large Italian-American population. Drive around the county and you’ll see lots of mailboxes with names like Rinaldi, Carabillo, Cusumano, etc. You’ll see some Italian flags and cutesy signs like “Parking for Italians Only.” > > –The people who live in these houses (at least the ones I know–I don’t imagine it’s any different for those I don’t) are proud of their Italian heritage. But they speak, read, write, and understand little if any Italian. And, according to a friend who works in the tourism industry in Italy, many if not most of those who do in fact didn’t learn Italian, but some Italian dialect (say, Sicilian) and realize once vacationing in Venice or Florence that people don’t understand them. And some seem totally unaware that what was passed down to them was a dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/97 "2015-08-03T00:23:16Z")
Probably they don’t think about dialects because in North America languages are far more uniform over large geographical regions than they are in Europe, and even American “dialects” are usually mutually intelligible. I’m told it’s quite a bit different in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/98 "2015-08-03T03:30:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There is a distinct difference between language acquisition in infants/toddlers, young children before puberty, and adults. Acquiring a language at one point in life does not give you insight into doing so at another point in life. > Cite, please. > > Of course, if it doesn’t matter why worry about it? There’s quite a range of “normal” ages for language landmarks anyway. I’m not worried about it or opposed to bilingualism. I have been the one to convince friends to raise their children bilingually. That isn’t the same as one of the languages being useless and taught to the child for the purpose of propping up the language or lamenting when people sensibly elect to let dying languages get off life support and quietly pass on. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/99 "2015-08-03T10:57:55Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > Exposure to English and French will allow them to participate in the global conversation. I’ve met people in non-English-speaking countries who English fluently in spite of never having left their own country and who attributed this to watching American and British television and movies. Ok, but the people in question speak French, and probably some English. They already get US TV and movies. That isn’t the questions. What I am saying is that just because a language is dying doesn’t mean that people don’t want to preserve it. It may just mean that they aren’t gaining access to resources at the same rate that they are being globalized. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2015, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695/100 "2015-08-03T11:05:49Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > That isn’t the same as one of the languages being useless and taught to the child for the purpose of propping up the language or lamenting when people sensibly elect to let dying languages get off life support and quietly pass on. On the other hand, you seem pretty worked up about the whole issue. What do you care if, in addition to a major language like English or Mandarin the kid also picks up Gaelic or some other, obscure, “useless” language? It’s not going to hurt the kid to be multilingual and there’s some evidence it’s even good for the brain. It’s like arguing that playing a musical instrument is a waste of time if you aren’t a professional and intending to earn a living with it. It’s not like anyone is going to force the person to keep using it if they don’t want to later in life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-sad-when-a-language-dies-out/726695.md?page=6)