# Why is it so damn hard to prevent credit card fraud? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 8, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357 "2017-02-08T23:27:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/41 "2017-02-12T05:39:57Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > The last one I heard was to get a $700 wireless EMV enabled pin pad. On the one hand, probably the best option. OTOH, most of them didn’t want to hand a $700 pin pad around the bar all night. Pretty much all bars and restaurants over here use a remote card reader. I can’t remember the last time I had to walk anywhere to use my card. $ 700 seems awfully costly, however, and I’m wondering why it would cost that much. If I remember it, I’ll try to ask someone if they had to pay extra for it and how much (maybe it’s less costly over here). On the other hand, people don’t usually pay by card at a bar. Even though using a card for small payments is more and more common, most people still aren’t accustomed to it (it just seems weird to use a card to pay for a cup of coffee), and many bussiness owners still refuse cards for small amounts. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/42 "2017-02-12T23:59:30Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > In the restaurants I frequent (note that I am in Canada where we **do** have chip&pin) the entire transaction plus tip IS finalized at once, at the table. The gizmo that you stick your card in to pay for your meal prompts for whether you want to tip and if so, how much (and usually you have a choice between specifying a % or an actual value for a tip; handy for people lousy at arithmetic). Said gizmo is also wireless. Though at the actual cash register there is also a terminal. And with the increasing use of EMV-based near-field communications, for small transactions, I can just thunk my debit card against the terminal, wait for acceptance, and go. Takes about a second. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/43 "2017-02-13T01:54:23Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > T > The “solutions” I heard were to move their credit card machines closer to the bar (instead of on the back wall) so the customers could reach them. Most of them didn’t want to do that since it involved adding power, network/phone lines and a real possibility of liquid getting spilled on them. It would also mean customers would have to go to the machine to use their card. The next option was to get a long cord for their pin pad and leave the machine where it was. But most owners weren’t interested in having a cord running all over the bar all night. It’s only a matter of time before it gets broken\*. The last one I heard was to get a $700 wireless EMV enabled pin pad. On the one hand, probably the best option. OTOH, most of them didn’t want to hand a $700 pin pad around the bar all night. I travel to Canada (Vancouver, B.C.) frequently and all the restaurants there had wireless devices that the waiters hand you when you’re ready to pay your bill – you insert your CC or DC, choose the tip amount, and enter your PIN. The device then prints out your receipt, which is then handed to you. I don’t see a technical reason preventing this from happening here in the US, though I recognize that the non-technical reasons described by other posters above are legitimate concerns for merchants. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/44 "2017-02-13T03:18:44Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > I am confused? > My debit card is chip, it also requires you to enter a PIN with the chip > and then it requires you respond to the 2 part auth > > So technically 3 things > > Your bank does not have this? This confuses me, a Canadian. With my debit card, it’s chip and PIN. The only extra authorization is if I am using online banking or telephone banking. In Canada, you cannot use your debit card without a PIN. Of course, thieves have ways of getting the PIN. For credit cards, it’s worse. Even in Canada, though our credit cards are basically call chip and PIN now, it’s possible to skip the PIN. The first time you use a credit card at a terminal you have to sign. Also I once used a weird machine where it clearly used the PIN, but I had to sign a screen with a big fat pen. I checked my online account when I went home and it was already reported, so apparently it was as fast as chip and PIN, but probably a little less secure. To OP, could you have a contactless card? In Canada most cards are contactless, and you can buy something for less than $100 without using a PIN. A theft of under $100 could be easily done, as the thief doesn’t need your PIN, just the right equipment. In Canada there is no liability at all for the customer if they’re defrauded using this method. Makes me wonder if I could buy something for $50 and then cry fraud. (But I won’t. That would be fraud.) ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/45 "2017-02-13T19:03:23Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > For credit cards, it’s worse. Even in Canada, though our credit cards are basically call chip and PIN now, it’s possible to skip the PIN. The first time you use a credit card at a terminal you have to sign. ??? Not sure if I am misunderstanding you. I certainly don’t sign at any new terminals I come across. I also didn’t sign anywhere the very first time I used the credit card (TD Visa) that I currently use; I just phoned a special phone number from my home phone to activate it. How does one skip the PIN? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/46 "2017-02-14T07:08:27Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > ??? Not sure if I am misunderstanding you. I certainly don’t sign at any new terminals I come across. I also didn’t sign anywhere the very first time I used the credit card (TD Visa) that I currently use; I just phoned a special phone number from my home phone to activate it. How does one skip the PIN? I can’t say for Canada, but in the states, when you’re prompted for a PIN, it’s usually a matter of hitting Skip or Credit or Cancel. What I think is funny is that on our machine you sign on the screen (as a book keeper I love that), I’m amazed at how many people think it’s ‘gross’ or refuse because of all the ‘germs’ and request a stylus (which we don’t have) or ask us to print out a paper copy for them to sign. Mind you, they just spent 20 minutes pushing around a shopping cart that hasn’t been cleaned in who knows how long, and that’s after opening the front door and all the display case doors and now want to use a pen that’s been touched by (literally) hundreds or thousands of people…but rubbing their finger across a piece of glass, well, that’s the breaking point. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/47 "2017-02-15T14:37:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That also has the problem that not everyone these days has a smartphone. Really. Millions of Americans don’t have a smartphone. Also sucks when your smartphone dies, or there’s some problem with the network it uses. > > There’s a reason my employer, a store, accepts several different forms of payment. Phones are convenient but not necessary. For a decade banks in Europe (and presumably elsewhere) have been issuing free [PIN authentication devices](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program) for online banking and verification of online transactions. Cheap as chips for the banks to by in bulk and often interoperable between banks. Both the ones I have work with both bank cards I have. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/48 "2017-02-15T15:34:03Z")
A week for a new debit card? What? Seriously? I lost mine just before Christmas and had a new one in my hand within 3 hrs. I walked to my branch and picked it up. They have them, right there. They just cancel the old (actually they did that when I called in!), formatted a new one, I signed, and done! Why would it take over a week? That seems not very client friendly to me. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/49 "2017-02-15T21:57:09Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > A week for a new debit card? What? Seriously? I lost mine just before Christmas and had a new one in my hand within 3 hrs. I walked to my branch and picked it up. They have them, right there. They just cancel the old (actually they did that when I called in!), formatted a new one, I signed, and done! > > Why would it take over a week? That seems not very client friendly to me. I’ve never had to replace a lost/stolen debit card, but I agree with **elbows** , since I watched the process once. I wanted to talk to a person at my bank’s help counter for another reason and the customer ahead of me needed a new card. The person at the help counter checked their id, invalidated the old card, pulled out a big stack of non-validated cards, validated one of them, made the customer pick a new PIN, and handed it to the customer. A few minutes at most. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/50 "2017-02-15T22:16:59Z")
A week sounds about right if the bank is sending you a new card. It’s the same if you need a CC replaced. If you tell them it’s urgent, they’ll expedite it and you’ll receive it in a day or two. Many people don’t visit their local bank very much anymore, if at all. They may not be aware that the branch can issue cards. And some people have banks which don’t even have local branches. I wonder if it’s an age thing if you would think of getting a new card from your bank. Back in the old days, you’d visit the local bank quite often to get cash and make deposits. But now with direct deposit, autopay, cash back at the store, etc., people hardly have a reason to step inside their local branch after setting up their account. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/51 "2017-02-15T23:26:14Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > A week for a new debit card? What? Seriously? I lost mine just before Christmas and had a new one in my hand within 3 hrs. I walked to my branch and picked it up. They have them, right there. They just cancel the old (actually they did that when I called in!), formatted a new one, I signed, and done! > > Why would it take over a week? That seems not very client friendly to me. Yup a week. I never asked if I could stop in at one of the local locations and do it over the counter…it was also never mentioned in the phone call I had with CS. Even with all the info so far in this thread I can’t for the life of me figure out why there can’t be one more security feature built into the process to make it a\* little\* harder for fraud to occur. Like I stated in the OP, it could be a phone text verification that you have to respond to or a prompt built into the app I have on my phone (from my bank) that would ask for verification that I just made said purchase. I could envision a system where I would pre-authorise a purchase (via the app) at Joey P’s (lol) and then use the card to complete the transaction. It seems to me there are things that could be done that wouldn’t cost the merchants an arm and a leg…most people have smart phones. You could chose to opt out of any such arrangements but for those that want to tighten up their security there should be steps in place. The way it is now I can often chose to run my debit card as a credit card (no pin required) and very frequently I won’t be asked to sign anything to complete the sale. I am _NEVER_ asked for ID. It’s like the banks want fraud to be easy. Funny thing…when I talked to CS I had to give the phone tree system more information than I’m sure the person who used my card fraudulently had to give at the time they used my card. I had to enter my pin (1), then my bill matching area code (2), and then when I actually spoke to the CS rep I had to restate the info (1) and (2) and then state and spell my name as it appeared on the card (3). This, I guarantee, was more than the person using my card had to do. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/52 "2017-02-15T23:46:33Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > A week for a new debit card? What? Seriously? I lost mine just before Christmas and had a new one in my hand within 3 hrs. I walked to my branch and picked it up. They have them, right there. They just cancel the old (actually they did that when I called in!), formatted a new one, I signed, and done! > > Why would it take over a week? That seems not very client friendly to me. These things both sound right to me. I didn’t know for a very long time that you could go to the bank for a new debit card, so when they lost one in the mail, I called and got the replacement about a week later. Later, the two or three times they replaced the card due to attempted fraud (only attempted, no charges ever have gone through), it took less than half an hour at the bank. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Chip and Pin would start to help, but it is blocked in the US due to how tips and table service payment work. Yet another reason to do away with our idiotic tipping culture and simply pay servers at least the normal minimum wage… ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357/53 "2017-02-16T04:35:39Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > To OP, could you have a contactless card? In Canada most cards are contactless, and you can buy something for less than $100 without using a PIN. A theft of under $100 could be easily done, as the thief doesn’t need your PIN, just the right equipment. In Canada there is no liability at all for the customer if they’re defrauded using this method. Makes me wonder if I could buy something for $50 and then cry fraud. (But I won’t. That would be fraud.) In the US, contactless cards are all but dead. A few of out major issuers (mostly Chase) did a big promotional push a few years ago to get people to use them, but merchants were slow in installing terminals and consumers were reluctant to use them. When [Chase threw in the towel](http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/Chase-To-Discontinue-Its-Blink-Contactless-Card_-But-It_s-Unlikely-To-Slow-EMV-Migration) a couple of years ago, almost everyone else followed suit. I had a friend who still had a working contactless card last year. She insisted that there was no such thing. I told her to just try tapping the card against the terminals at the few stores where the terminal had the “paywave” symbol. It registered at all of them, but only about half of them actually allowed the charge to go through. At most of them, it generated a strange error message of some sort. And the reactions of the clerks were actually priceless. Even if it worked, they would say stuff like “How did you do that? I’ve never seen that before” or “That’s for cell phones only. You can’t do that.” And, as for my friend, she never used the contactless feature unless I was there to remind her (and I don’t think that she ever really believed it was legitimate). When the card expired late last year, it was replaced with one that did not have the contactless feature. You’ll still find the contactless terminals at most major chain stores. The banks are now hoping that cell phone payments will catch on as more than a novelty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-damn-hard-to-prevent-credit-card-fraud/779357.md?page=2)