# Why is it so hard to believe in God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429 "2002-06-28T18:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/241 "2002-07-04T10:54:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > OK - let’s do this then. If it’s okay with you I’d like to take one subject at a time and go from there. I’m picking **gobear’s** subject of Noah’s Ark first since the questions asked were of great interest to me. > > I started with this [talkorigins](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#building) page about Noah’s Ark with the first question “How was the Ark built and how could it be made seaworthy”. > > Read [This](http://www.lookandlive.com/noahsarkpart2.html) and let me know what you think. Dreamer, Thank you for taking me up on this. As I said I would like to have a debate with you on the evidence, and I’m sure many others will join in too. (And they can live up to our standards and be polite throughout 🙂 ) Of course it is fine for you to answer one point at a time - you pick 'em, we’ll discuss 'em! But I do have a suggestion. This thread started with you asking us why we didn’t believe. I feel a bit guilty :o that it’s turned into you giving your reasons for your beliefs. (The thread is also becoming rather long - which shows the SDMB is interested in the topic.) So I’d like to start a new thread, covering our debate. I’ll try to copy everything across from your above post. Then if people want to tell you why they don’t believe, they can continue to do that here. And we can debate in the new thread. 🆒 Hope you approve of that! ---
**Author:** ![taklon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@taklon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taklon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/242 "2002-07-04T12:58:55Z")
I started reading this with interest, I find mythology interesting generally. As I read further I just got fustrated and angry, as I tend to when I listen to or read christian comments. With all due respect Dreamer the arrogance of christians is almost intolerable. Asking why it is so hard to believe?? What makes you think it is hard?? I don’t even give it a thought. I am actually agnostic, not because I give credence to the idea there may be a god, but because I couldn’t gice a rats left testicle if there is or not. But understand I am not less of a person for this. I live my life as best I can, not always doing the ‘right’ thing but seems right to me at the time, which is all anybody can ask. I do not feel less than christians, or have less capacity to love (which often seems to be the main point of christians Vs nonbelievers). To my mind god is irrevent, there are a lot of bad believers out there. Here in Australia there has been a lot of media about child-molesting priests. Surely that would be the worst thing a man of god could do, and surely proves that they do not believe in god themselves! and if they don’t why should any body else. Looking back on what I see that I have not said what I wanted to say the way I wanted to say it, as usual. Anyway your OP was arrogant, but I haven’t taken offence. It’s not unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/243 "2002-07-04T15:02:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\* > > Solid, irrefutable evidence? > > Maybe have the stars form in great big letters saying “YHWH Lives!” or something like that 😃 \*\* And then you would believe without question that God exists and he was the one who put the stars in that formation? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/244 "2002-07-04T15:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > **So I’d like to start a new thread, covering our debate.** **glee** , sounds good to me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/245 "2002-07-04T15:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*And you heard him say this [“this” = God telling me that He didn’t want me – Quix]? If God would do anything you asked him to, what could he do to make you believe? \*\* I don’t think I like what you’re implying here, **dreamer** , and it’s something you’ve implied (or outright said) in this thread. I don’t think you realize how _extremely_ arrogant you sound when you say that people are **wilfully** denying the obviousness and truth of the God package. It’s one thing to say that you’ve found God – I can respect and even understand this. Christians aren’t exactly unknown in this nation, so it’s not like you’re inscrutable or something. It’s another thing to say that you **know** that you’re right, because people can call you on this claim. As they’ve done in this very thread: what do you tell the Muslim who **knows** that Jesus was just another prophet? But the thing I can’t stomach, and which is liable to get you Pitted one of these days, is when you tell us not only that we’re wrong, but that we’re being wrong **on purpose** or that we’re being wrong because we’re ignoring “evidence” which is plain as day. The former case applies directly to me: like I said, no one has ever sought God harder than I have. If I have any sort of bias, it’s towards being just like you. But that just didn’t happen. The latter case… well, you’ll have to read the Talk.origins site and get back to us on that one. You’re right, the “evidence” is quite compelling… but not for your side. Did I _hear_ God tell me that I wasn’t wanted? No, but the message was loud and clear nonetheless. You can start a different thread, if you’d like, with a topic something like “Did you used to be a Christian and then apostasize?” That might be a very eye-opening thread for you. As far as what it’d take for me to believe, well, I can think of a million things. Rearranging the stars would do the trick, just as an example. Or more simply–not ignoring me when I asked for His Love. Quix P.S. **Squish** , thanks for the thumbs-up 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/246 "2002-07-04T16:33:43Z")
I’m sorry you feel that way **quixotic78** , but you said " God told me, “Nope, I don’t want you.” - so I was responding to that statement. > [@](#): > > It’s another thing to say that you know that you’re right, because people can call you on this claim. As they’ve done in this very thread: what do you tell the Muslim who knows that Jesus was just another prophet? As I’ve said before, I know I’m right in my beliefs. I’ve **never said that anyone else was wrong** I’ve said they “choose not to believe in the God I believe in”. If you want to call that arrogant, or take me to the pit for it, then that’s your choice. I would tell the Muslim nothing, unless they asked for my opinion. If they choose to believe that about Jesus they have all the free will in the world to do so. > [@](#): > > You’re right, the “evidence” is quite compelling… but not for your side. This is not the first time I’ve heard this, but am I telling you that _you’re_ arrogant for saying that? The evidence is clear to me. > [@](#): > > As far as what it’d take for me to believe, well, I can think of a million things. Rearranging the stars would do the trick, just as an example. Or more simply–not ignoring me when I asked for His Love Can you please explain this a bit further? I don’t understand when you say he “ignored” you. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/247 "2002-07-04T16:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by arisu \* \*\* > > ## IMO he has proven his existence. You’re choosing not to believe it. > > Add me to the list of people quite insulted by this. I was raised a Christian, but found the faith to be unfulfilling for me, despite a great deal of study and prayer. (After still more study and prayer, I have found my faith, but it is not Christianity.) > > And you are equating me to a toddler who sticks her fingers in her ears and yells to avoid hearing something she doesn’t like. > It is presuptuous and belittling to me, all of my efforts, and everyone else who doesn’t happen to believe the same things as you. \*\* This is what I wanted you to address, **dreamer**. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/248 "2002-07-04T17:52:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > I’m sorry you feel that way **quixotic78** , but you said " > God told me, “Nope, I don’t want you.” - so I was responding to that statement. > > Can you please explain this a bit further? I don’t understand when you say he “ignored” you. dreamer, I think this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* (bolding mine) > I was as sincere, as pitiful, as selfless, and as needful as any human being in history in my quest for Jesus’ love. **And the answer I got was silence.** God told me, “Nope, I don’t want you.” means that quixotic78 honestly opened his heart to God. But **nothing happened** , so quixotic78 was then being sarcastic. He didn’t hear from God, so either God doesn’t exist or God ignored him. quixotic78, I hope I’ve expressed your position correctly. This thread is probably going to be taken more literally than any other! ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/249 "2002-07-04T19:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by quixotic78 (bolding mine) > I was as sincere, as pitiful, as selfless, and as needful as any human being in history in my quest for Jesus’ love. And the answer I got was silence. God told me, “Nope, I don’t want you.” > [@](#): > > means that quixotic78 honestly opened his heart to God. But nothing happened, so quixotic78 was then being sarcastic. He didn’t hear from God, so either God doesn’t exist or God ignored him. I was being sarcastic too then, and by no means meant to intentionally put anyone down and apologize if it sounded that way. I still woud like to know (quixotic78) why you know God has ignored you. Did you pray for something specific and it didn’t happen? Please explain this to me. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/250 "2002-07-04T20:00:44Z")
\*\*arisu \*\* I believe I did apologize for that statement and if not I do so now. I am glad you found your faith. Maybe you will share with us what Faith you have found? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/251 "2002-07-04T20:02:40Z")
**arisu** , I don’t have anything in particular to respond to your comments, but I’ve been there with a touch of Permanent Ignored Poster Syndrome, so this paragraph is just to thank you, on my part, for joining in the discussion. **Urban Ranger** , I’m perfectly well aware that whatever evidence the world in general might supply for a God does not prove the particular God in whom I believe – we can call this the “ **Urban Ranger** Corrolary to the Refutation of Pascal’s Wager,” if you like. 🙂 However, I was not asserting it in proof of a particular concept of God, but merely asserting that, to one who has accepted faith in a Creator God (in this case YHWH as understood by Anglican Christians) for other reasons, the universe He has made furnishes adequate evidence to support that belief. Naturally, I’d welcome some explanations of **why** all particles have a particular baryon number, spin, etc., that do not depend on “because God made them so” or “because that’s just the way it is” – you may have run into the idea of the Anthropic Principle somewhere down the way. While it is a total case of _post hoc ergo propter hoc_, in that – the Universe was not, in a non-teleological viewpoint, created to house man, man evolved (physically and biologically) as he is in response to the conditions of the Universe in general and Earth in particular – nonetheless if one assumes a teleology, it then becomes supportive of a particular Creator view. This however gets us into some deep waters including the Intelligent Design folks and physics and molecular biology aspects that I do not pretend to be sufficiently versed on to comment intelligently about. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/252 "2002-07-04T22:28:02Z")
**dreamer** , once and for all would you _please_ just present to us the evidence that proves to you that the particular god you believe in exists to the exclusion of all other gods? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/253 "2002-07-04T22:55:15Z")
\*\* Czarcasm \*\*, Come over [[HERE](http://http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123866) where it’s being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/254 "2002-07-04T22:57:12Z")
Let’s try that again [HERE](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123866) [fixed link-Czarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/255 "2002-07-04T22:59:02Z")
Well for some reason that link isn’t working for me so just come over to the thread that **glee** started in GD entitled “What is the evidence to support the bible.” ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/256 "2002-07-04T23:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > **As I’ve said before, I know I’m right in my beliefs. I’ve never said that anyone else was wrong.** I think it’s implied. Do you think, say, **tracer** is wrong when he says that the world was NOT flooded? \*\* > [@](#): > > I don’t understand when you say he [“he” = God] “ignored” you. \*\* I’m referring to Romans 10:8-13 (NKJV version, emphasis added): > [@](#): > > But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and **believe in your heart** that God has raised Him from the dead, **you WILL be saved**. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Here are the options I see: [ul] [li]The passage is a mere concoction of Paul (or someone else) and isn’t the word of God at all[/li][li]Jesus was NOT raised from the dead, so it doesn’t apply[/li][li]God is a figment of everyone’s imagination[/li][li]God “put me to shame,” because He doesn’t want me[/li][/ul] Feel free to add an extra option to the list. I’d think twice before you question my conviction in my search, though. I might think that you’re, shall we say, incorrect in your “knowledge” of God, but I don’t doubt for a second your conviction. I trust you’ll afford me the same courtesy. Quix ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/257 "2002-07-05T02:01:10Z")
**dreamer** , when posting the link, please notice that the “http://” part of the link has already been inserted-if _you_ type “http://” also, the link won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/258 "2002-07-05T02:16:56Z")
And, might I add, you don’t exactly provide any real evidence in the linked thread either. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/259 "2002-07-05T03:07:11Z")
It seems fitting to quote Laplace here: “- Believe in God? But sir, I don’t have the need for that hypthesis.” (free translation by myself). ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429/260 "2002-07-05T05:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*And, might I add, you don’t exactly provide any real evidence in the linked thread either. \*\* :rolleyes: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > dreamer, once and for all would you please just present to us the evidence that proves \*\*to you \*\*that the particular god you believe in exists to the exclusion of all other gods? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-in-god/116429.md?page=14)