Thank you for taking me up on this. As I said I would like to have a debate with you on the evidence, and I’m sure many others will join in too. (And they can live up to our standards and be polite throughout )
Of course it is fine for you to answer one point at a time - you pick 'em, we’ll discuss 'em!
But I do have a suggestion.
This thread started with you asking us why we didn’t believe.
I feel a bit guilty :o that it’s turned into you giving your reasons for your beliefs. (The thread is also becoming rather long - which shows the SDMB is interested in the topic.)
So I’d like to start a new thread, covering our debate. I’ll try to copy everything across from your above post.
Then if people want to tell you why they don’t believe, they can continue to do that here.
And we can debate in the new thread.
I started reading this with interest, I find mythology interesting generally. As I read further I just got fustrated and angry, as I tend to when I listen to or read christian comments. With all due respect Dreamer the arrogance of christians is almost intolerable. Asking why it is so hard to believe?? What makes you think it is hard?? I don’t even give it a thought. I am actually agnostic, not because I give credence to the idea there may be a god, but because I couldn’t gice a rats left testicle if there is or not. But understand I am not less of a person for this. I live my life as best I can, not always doing the ‘right’ thing but seems right to me at the time, which is all anybody can ask. I do not feel less than christians, or have less capacity to love (which often seems to be the main point of christians Vs nonbelievers). To my mind god is irrevent, there are a lot of bad believers out there. Here in Australia there has been a lot of media about child-molesting priests. Surely that would be the worst thing a man of god could do, and surely proves that they do not believe in god themselves! and if they don’t why should any body else.
Looking back on what I see that I have not said what I wanted to say the way I wanted to say it, as usual. Anyway your OP was arrogant, but I haven’t taken offence. It’s not unexpected.
I don’t think I like what you’re implying here, dreamer, and it’s something you’ve implied (or outright said) in this thread. I don’t think you realize how extremely arrogant you sound when you say that people are wilfully denying the obviousness and truth of the God package. It’s one thing to say that you’ve found God – I can respect and even understand this. Christians aren’t exactly unknown in this nation, so it’s not like you’re inscrutable or something. It’s another thing to say that you know that you’re right, because people can call you on this claim. As they’ve done in this very thread: what do you tell the Muslim who knows that Jesus was just another prophet?
But the thing I can’t stomach, and which is liable to get you Pitted one of these days, is when you tell us not only that we’re wrong, but that we’re being wrong on purpose or that we’re being wrong because we’re ignoring “evidence” which is plain as day. The former case applies directly to me: like I said, no one has ever sought God harder than I have. If I have any sort of bias, it’s towards being just like you. But that just didn’t happen. The latter case… well, you’ll have to read the Talk.origins site and get back to us on that one. You’re right, the “evidence” is quite compelling… but not for your side.
Did I hear God tell me that I wasn’t wanted? No, but the message was loud and clear nonetheless. You can start a different thread, if you’d like, with a topic something like “Did you used to be a Christian and then apostasize?” That might be a very eye-opening thread for you.
As far as what it’d take for me to believe, well, I can think of a million things. Rearranging the stars would do the trick, just as an example. Or more simply–not ignoring me when I asked for His Love.
I’m sorry you feel that way quixotic78, but you said "
God told me, “Nope, I don’t want you.” - so I was responding to that statement.
As I’ve said before, I know I’m right in my beliefs. I’ve never said that anyone else was wrong I’ve said they “choose not to believe in the God I believe in”. If you want to call that arrogant, or take me to the pit for it, then that’s your choice.
I would tell the Muslim nothing, unless they asked for my opinion. If they choose to believe that about Jesus they have all the free will in the world to do so.
This is not the first time I’ve heard this, but am I telling you that you’re arrogant for saying that? The evidence is clear to me.
Can you please explain this a bit further? I don’t understand when you say he “ignored” you.
means that quixotic78 honestly opened his heart to God. But nothing happened, so quixotic78 was then being sarcastic. He didn’t hear from God, so either God doesn’t exist or God ignored him.
quixotic78,
I hope I’ve expressed your position correctly. This thread is probably going to be taken more literally than any other!
I was being sarcastic too then, and by no means meant to intentionally put anyone down and apologize if it sounded that way. I still woud like to know (quixotic78) why you know God has ignored you. Did you pray for something specific and it didn’t happen? Please explain this to me.
I believe I did apologize for that statement and if not I do so now. I am glad you found your faith. Maybe you will share with us what Faith you have found?
arisu, I don’t have anything in particular to respond to your comments, but I’ve been there with a touch of Permanent Ignored Poster Syndrome, so this paragraph is just to thank you, on my part, for joining in the discussion.
Urban Ranger, I’m perfectly well aware that whatever evidence the world in general might supply for a God does not prove the particular God in whom I believe – we can call this the “Urban Ranger Corrolary to the Refutation of Pascal’s Wager,” if you like. However, I was not asserting it in proof of a particular concept of God, but merely asserting that, to one who has accepted faith in a Creator God (in this case YHWH as understood by Anglican Christians) for other reasons, the universe He has made furnishes adequate evidence to support that belief.
Naturally, I’d welcome some explanations of why all particles have a particular baryon number, spin, etc., that do not depend on “because God made them so” or “because that’s just the way it is” – you may have run into the idea of the Anthropic Principle somewhere down the way. While it is a total case of post hoc ergo propter hoc, in that – the Universe was not, in a non-teleological viewpoint, created to house man, man evolved (physically and biologically) as he is in response to the conditions of the Universe in general and Earth in particular – nonetheless if one assumes a teleology, it then becomes supportive of a particular Creator view. This however gets us into some deep waters including the Intelligent Design folks and physics and molecular biology aspects that I do not pretend to be sufficiently versed on to comment intelligently about.
dreamer, once and for all would you please just present to us the evidence that proves to you that the particular god you believe in exists to the exclusion of all other gods?
Well for some reason that link isn’t working for me so just come over to the thread that glee started in GD entitled “What is the evidence to support the bible.”
I think it’s implied. Do you think, say, tracer is wrong when he says that the world was NOT flooded?
**
I’m referring to Romans 10:8-13 (NKJV version, emphasis added):
Here are the options I see:
[ul]
[li]The passage is a mere concoction of Paul (or someone else) and isn’t the word of God at all[/li][li]Jesus was NOT raised from the dead, so it doesn’t apply[/li][li]God is a figment of everyone’s imagination[/li][li]God “put me to shame,” because He doesn’t want me[/li][/ul]
Feel free to add an extra option to the list. I’d think twice before you question my conviction in my search, though. I might think that you’re, shall we say, incorrect in your “knowledge” of God, but I don’t doubt for a second your conviction. I trust you’ll afford me the same courtesy.
dreamer, when posting the link, please notice that the “http://” part of the link has already been inserted-if you type “http://” also, the link won’t work.
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