Why is it so hard to believe in God?

I am just making the point that we too often discount our own thoughts, and our own faith, both of which are real, giving preference to an external reality that is not proven to exist, let alone proven to be meaningful. Your example, of course, relies on the meaningfulness of external reality. Having faith that your inner reality, the reality you know to exist, will continue existing no matter what seems to happen in external reality is reasonable because inner reality is certain and external reality is not. In fact I have been having major doubts about external reality lately.

That is a question for whoever is sending the message to answer for themself.

“Messianic Jews”, otherwise known as “Jews For Jesus”, can best be described here . If Zev finds his way over here, he might tell you how much it conflicts with real Judeism.

musicguy, let me just add that I can completely understand how you would be turned off by this. I experienced the same thing in many other churches and with individuals, and I was turned off as well. I’m sorry there are people out there who give Christianity a bad name. I’m sorry there are some people out there who don’t show the love of God to others, and I’m incredibly sorry that so many people don’t see the loving God that I do.

Now I must get ready for band practice and the little, mini-dopefest tonght. I wish all of you a wonderful Saturday afternoon and evening and I look forward to continuing this conversation :slight_smile:

*Messianic Jew: A Simple Definition
A Messianic Jew is a Jewish person who believes that Yeshua (Jesus) is their Messiah. *

Explain to me again why you think I don’t fall into this category? Are you saying that because I am a Christian that I am no longer a Jew? I also attend temple once in a while with my brother and Grandmother and have attended a Messianic Temple/Church as well. I’m trying to be open minded here, I just want to understand what you mean.

the problem is i refuse to BELIEVE anything!

just because something is true does not necessarily mean you can obtain enough information to KNOW that it is true.

just because something is false does not necessarily mean you can obtain enough informationt to KNOW that it is false.

we have to accept that we must live with a significant degree of uncertainty and make decisions on suspicion and probability. this however brings up the problem of people lying and hiding information. you may notice that people who promote certain beliefs leave out any information that contradicts their beliefs. it’s like George Harrison said: “searching for the truth among the lying.”

i spent 13 years in catholic schools. my sisters were baptized and became catholics. i asked one “what if the only reason you belive it is because that is what you were taught?” she said “i don’t like to think about that.” i don’t understand people like her. to me it is obvious that most religious belief is just the psychological conditioning of children. the jesuits have a saying “give me a child until he is seven years old and he is mine for life.” psychologists call it the socialization process.

does this mean everything about religion is BULLSH!T? back to uncertainty. i started reading about the occult around 1974. most of the occult is bullsh!t. there are lots of liars and scam artists. read about houdini exposing occultists. i have met 6 people who claim experiences with ghosts/spirits, are they all lying. i think wierd things are going on but plenty of people are trying to make money off the mysterious and confusing, so they just produce more bullsh!t.

what are near death experiences all about?

so, i SUSPECT there is a god and i SUSPECT he runs the system on reincarnation. i refuse to BELIEVE anything. belief is illogical.

Dal Timgar

** dreamer ** Have fun today.

I got to admit, I admire you. I did notice the abundance of atheïst here. [Which I find pleasantly surprising on an American board]

I believe you’re a good person, like most of us, non-believers are. Best of luck to you.

Absolutely correct. My lack of belief is not based solely on that experience though. In fact, that experience occurred after I had gone through trying to find God as I had described above. I came to the church somewhat cynical, I admit. They did not help to change my opinions however. I remember reading, shortly after this experience, that the Crystal Cathedral (another church in So. California) was building a museum to honor capitalism. That turned me off as well. Isn’t the love of money supposedly the root of all evil? Yet, nobody there seemed to realize the irony in this.

I know you shouldn’t judge based on a few experiences but, as you have even admitted to, there are many Christians out there who really give Christianity a bad name.

dreamer, you are a Christian. This is the religion you converted to when you chose to belief in Jesus.
Before Conversion->Jew
After Conversion->Christian

It’s like when wood is processed into paper:
Before Processing->wood
After Processing->paper, not “paperwood”.

Dreamer said, "Can someone tell me how they know that what they believe is right? And prove to me that it is? "

Yes, Dreamer. The proof is that there is no evidence to the contrary. The proof is that we know through scientific scrutiny that the universe is billions of years old. We know of no afterlife because we haven’t seen proof that one exists. We know that the bible was written by people on their own, not through god, because there is no proof that god did it.

You required an extremely simple degree of proof in order for you to believe these things. Someone just said it. They had nothing to back their statement. You just believed it because they said it. I require a much higher standard of proof before I will accept these things. Heresay just won’t cut it with me.
I’d be happy to side with you if you (or anyone) can provide proof that there is a loving, manipulating, intervening god. I’d be first in line to ask why he didn’t reveal himself to me sooner. I’d be first to ask why he didn’t answer the prayers of those around me who believe with all their hearts. I’d ask him why he didn’t save my mother from an early death from cancer. I’d ask him why he let my son’s father abandon him. I’d ask him what you did that put you in line ahead of the millions of people who don’t have a diety in their life. I’d ask him WHICH god he actually is, so I can start attending the right church.

You claimed there was evidence for the existence of God. I pointed out that there are many branches of Christianity, and asked how you know which one is right. (Because there are plenty of Christians who will say you’ve got it wrong.)
If God does exist, why doesn’t he make things clear to those who believe in him?

OK (we knew that!). So you don’t have evidence - you have faith. And faith can change (as it did in you) without any facts changing.
The Bible is still the same as when you were a Jew. So why did you change religion? It wasn’t because of any knowledge.
What this means to me is that religious believers are hopeful, but they can’t possibly know what is right.

Gravity.
You can’t see it, or touch it. But it’s there. It’s always present whenever matter is.
You can rely on gravity, and we all agree how it works.
That’s the sort of thing I believe in.

(Even Nightime might consider gravity a reality…)

Methinks Nighttime has just re-watched The Matrix and taken it a little too seriously. :slight_smile:

Again, St. Paul, “faith is the evidence of hoped for…” You have faith, strong, unshakeable faith, and that’s fine. But you should learn that faith is not the same thing as knowledge.

Put it this way, I am talking to you on a message board. I beleive that you are female becuase there are strong indications that this is so, but I cannot know this is so because we have not met, and I have never seen a photo of you.

Musicguy knows you, and he knows your gender conclusively.

Your relationship to God is like my relationship to you. You have strongf confidence that God exists, but your only real evidence are the promises in the Bible and your own subjective experiences. But you do not yet know God exists…perhaps you will after death.

My only response to this entire thread is that, yes I could choose what I want to believe.

And I only want to believe that which is true.

I would like my beliefs, and the behavior of the world to have some logical connection. There are many situation where no logical connection can be established. And I chose not to believe anything in those cases even though it runs counter to my wish to understand the world as fully as possible. Because I would rather file things under “don’t know, really hoping to find out” than just chuck anything inexplicable under “God, Judeo Christian variety”.

My previous experience lead me to hypothesis that there is a high likelyhood that a bible quote will seem appropriate at this point ( “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man commeth to the father but by me.” would fit I suppose ). Yes I have read the bible. No I was not struck by the great truth and love in the Bible. I was struck by how it tends to ramble, and how doing really bad things, when god likes you, is okay as long as you’re sorry and give mad props to god in the end. And I did notice that it was written by people who believe in it, which makes the source a bit biased.

I’d compare that to believing Amway products are the best, based on the word of your neighbor the Amway guy, who’s filled his garage so full of Amway merchandise he’ll be using it for the rest of his life. And his incontrovertable proof that it’s the best is that he never uses anything else. He’s biased, he’s invested, he can’t afford not to believe. I don’t have a garage full of Amway. My parents never bought the stuff. My garage is nice and empty and I find it rather peaceful not to worry about if my cleanser is as concentrated as yours.

And I think I should get a prize for longest, most mundane metaphor in this thread :wink:
It comes down to choosing not to randomly assign beliefs based on what makes me feel good, what makes society see me as “good” person, or what I might wish were true (for instance, meeting all my loved ones again in the afterlife. ) That would be wonderful. So would being able to fly. And understand everything that we don’t now. And how about some really cool robes that are all white and never need dry cleaning? And a really big house, like a mansion, something like that. This apartment gets sort of cramped. And how about a really great landlord, who only wants me to be happy, and will have everything perfectly set up for me.

Heaven by it’s very definition is the purest example of wish fullfillment. I’m not saying that makes it untrue. But it supports the hypothesis that Man created the concept of God in the image of what he’d like to be, equally as well as the belief that God created man, and just really wants to give us good stuff, once we say the passwords and join the club.

If not better.

Problem numero uno: If you believe in the wrong god, you’re screwed anyway.

Problem numero two-o: quoting from Terry Pratchett’s novel Hogfather:

This is very similar to the suggestion put forward by the Quirmian philosopher Ventre, who said, “Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it’s all true you’ll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn’t then you’ve lost nothing, right?” When he died he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, “We’re going to show you what we think of Mr. Clever Dick in these parts…”

(A.k.a., “Gosh, I’m going to get sneaky and outwit an omniscient God with this blatantly exploitative tactic, look at that!” :smiley: )

glee said:

Really? How DOES gravity work?

Do gravitational waves run transverse to the direction of propagation of the gravitational energy? Why have we never been able to measure gravitational waves, or even detect them? Do gravitational waves travel at the velocity of light? Why do our current models of how gravity works give predictions which do not come true?

Your hypothesis is that man created the concept of god in his image. This leaves all the questions about the origin of the universe and the nature of reality to be answered by an external reality which may not exist or may be meaningless.

Your description of belief is not accurate. God wants to give us good stuff if we say the password? If one hypothesis is that man created god in his image, logic should have told you that another hypothesis is that god created man in his image.

If god exists and heaven exists, then we can deduce that heaven follows from who god is. Now, if god creates humanity in his image, you can deduce that humanity will come up with the idea of heaven also. This has happened. Therefore, if god created humanity in his image, it is logical that we would want the same things as god. God has the power to make anything he wants be true. Therefore, it is logical to believe that the fact that you want something to be true actually makes it likely to be true!

Therefore, the only question is, are we created in god’s image? To answer this, I look at my own inner thoughts, faith, and imagination, the only things I can know exist. These things all suggest to me that we are created in the image of god, if only because of their superiority to an external reality which is completely meaningless. If you take away inner thoughts, faith, and imagination, can you find any meaning left, anywhere? This whole issue is simply a matter of trusting something meaningful over something that is meaningless.

The problem I have with the term “Messianic Jew” as you’re using it is that it suggests that you’re still practicing Judaism. If you said something like “I’m a Jew who converted to Christianity when I was 20…” or something, that would be ok, but saying “Messianic Jew” implies that you can still be a good Jew and believe that Jesus was the Christian messiah, which is so far removed from normative Judaism so as no longer to be Jewish.

Actually I still have to disagree with you. I was born into a Jewish family. My parents, Grandparents, Great Grandparents, and on down the line were all Jewish. I guess it’s a matter of opinion but I believe that it’s not only a religion, but also a heritage.

Tell me, What is your definition of a “Messianic Jew” then?

That is completely not true. God said it. Everything around me is proof that he exists, which would mean his words are clearly true to me, and simple yes. All I have to do is look around. Evolution on the other hand, has many missing pieces and no proof of anything, but to believe it also requires an “extremely simple” degree of proof. Just because someone says there was a Big Bang, you believe it.

Actually gobear, I don’t know you at all :). I do know God. He is my creator, my Father, my friend and my Savior. I’ve spent years building a relationship with him, experiencing life with him, and witnessing the truth and love he has for his creation. And what I recieve in return is not only the gift of eternal life, but also the knowing that he is there. The knowing that when I die my physical body may rot away 6 feet under, but my spirit won’t. He guides me, strenghthens me, blesses me well beyond what I deserve, and he’s my shoulder to lean on whenever I need him to be. All that is more than enough evidence for me.

quote:

Originally posted by EchoKitty
You required an extremely simple degree of proof in order for you to believe these things. Someone just said it. They had nothing to back their statement. You just believed it because they said it.
**

Then Dreamer said:

“That is completely not true. God said it. Everything around me is proof that he exists, which would mean his words are clearly true to me, and simple yes. All I have to do is look around. Evolution on the other hand, has many missing pieces and no proof of anything, but to believe it also requires an “extremely simple” degree of proof. Just because someone says there was a Big Bang, you believe it.”

“Someone” didn’t say it…science and its many learned minds backs up what most people (including many christians) believe about our universe. I agree that I don’t know everything there is to know about the Big Bang, but there is tangible evidence (and more is found every day) that points to this as being the truth.

Also, I don’t “know” it to be true. I would not be so simplistic as to think that our world can be explained by a book written by people who say a supernatural being sat down and in a week (of indeterminable time) created each thing around us. My belief is based on thoughtfully sorting out the evidence and developing an opinion based on that evidence. I also think it is much more realistic to believe that our existence is based on chance (the right elements being in the right place at the right time) than to believe that the creator you worship went through all that trouble only to see it spiral into insanity, and not fix the world’s problems, even though he can.

Dreamer, I’m happy that you are able to ignore the science and see the world you WANT to see. I can’t explain it all that easily. I need truth.