Definitely NO to #3. God would not do that, though I wouldn’t put it past his rival to do such things.
[/quote]
There is a lot of physical evidence for evolution. You tell us that God didn’t plant it, but suggest his rival might have.
(Presumably this is Satan.)
So are you saying that the evidence for evolution and the evidence for the age of the Earth is convincing, but was planted by Satan?
Do you mean the evidence for evolution and the age of the Earth exists?
I don’t know what you mean by perfect alignment. But the scientific theory of gravity certainly explains the orbits of the Earth, Moon and Sun.
It is interesting to note that medieval Christianity didn’t believe scientists who claimed the Earth was not the centre of the Universe.
That leads neatly back to:
There are a number of assumptions here.
I don’t know what it takes to convince you of anything (especially if it contradicts your religious beliefs).
As I said, there is a lot of evidence. If you think it was planted by Satan, then I don’t see how we continue this discussion (because I don’t believe in Satan either).
I asked if you think evolution has anything to do with creation. This sentence by you ‘You can’t just evolve from nothing.’ suggests that you are confused by the two separate concepts.
Scientists also don’t believe you can evolve from nothing - where did you get that idea from?
(That phrase is only used by fundamentalists who don’t understand evolution.)
Indeed some Christians believe God created the world, then evolution happened.
Why did the energy/matter have to ‘come from’ anywhere? How about ‘energy/matter can’t be destroyed, only converted between the two states’.
(I suppose I could ask you where God came from, but I’m sure you believe he has always existed. Just like energy/matter.)
As for the Big Bang, have you looked what astronomers / physicists think?
This has been a very interesting discussion, with most people remaining polite and not overly emotional, which makes a change. I’m sure other believers have often asked themselves the same question, too.
I don’t believe, well, I just don’t. I’m not resisting any belief, I just don’t think there is anything to believe in. At least, no anthropomorphic God. I do have a sense of ‘something out there’, but it seems more likely to be the residue of humankind’s dreams and conscious thoughts - because nothing can come from nothing nor go to nothing, so these immatterial thoughts might go on in some, transfigured way after death. That would be the God that all religions worship - our own minds.
But I’ll stop there before I start sounding like a crank.
Several years ago, I watched a TV programme about twin studies. You know how such studies have produced evidence that certain traits seem to have a strong heritable aspect; well, the tendency to have faith in God, whichever God, seems to be partly genetic. I don’t have a cite to hand and have to leave in two minutes, but I’ll try to look it up later. It could be that the so-called ‘God centre’ of the brain is more active in some people than others. But I guess that many Christians wouldn’t like to think that they believe because of their biology.
Dreamer said, "EchoKitty, I don’t believe evolution is the way it all went down, that doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that you think that’s the way it happened. I’m not telling you there’s no way you could know that to be true. When you say I “discounted what most intelligent people believe to be true (whatever that means), that’s not what I’ve said. I said I don’t believe it to be true. Do you understand what I’m saying or not?”
I guess I’m not very clear on what you’re saying. If you don’t believe that evolution is the way it came down, then you are discounting what most intelligent people believe is true. If you don’t discount it, you believe evolution and the Big Bang to be true. Your posts indicate you believe in creationism. That means you discount evolution and the Big Bang.
glee, I will go back and try to respond to the rest of your post, but for now I’m wondering if you can explain to me what the above statement means? What do those Christians believe? What do they think happened after God created Adam and Eve?
I wonder what your definition of “perfect alignment” is? The moon is, in fact, moving a tiny bit farther away from the Earth every year (which, thanks to conservation of angular momentum, also causes the Earth to slow down a tiny bit each year); at some point in the past, it was closer to Earth than it is now, and eventually, as it moves farther away, it will be too far for solar eclipses to occur anymore.
I can’t say for sure what glee meant, but some believe that God created the universe via the big bang, setting all the rules of physics at that point, and then took a “hands-off” approach after that. Being omnipotent, He could certainly have set up initial conditions to get whatever result He wanted.
Dreamer, I would strongly urge you to read and consider the Talk Origins articles. Accepting the reality of the evolution of species andbelieving in the divinity of Jesus are not incompatible. Many believing Christians accept evolution as God’s tool in creating humanity.
In any event, you need to get a basic grounding in biology so this issue can discusssed with mutual understanding.
This might be a difficult thing to grasp (although it seems curious that it would be a novel concept to someone who claims to have thoroughly investigated other religious views), but many Christians do not consider the creation story (either of them) in Genesis to be literal. They consider them to be allegory and metaphor, suited to the times in which they were written, with meaning that was applicable even after those times passed. Parables, if you will–parables being something that presumably always were in G-d’s style.
Let those with ears hear, sheep and goats, etc. Everyone’s pretty sure they’re part of the elect, and being part of the elect doesn’t mean much if others aren’t. Sects and schisms are inevitable with people.
Do you realize you’re declaring what God would and wouldn’t do or want? I wonder if the God you describe would think his child is being a little presumptuous.
Back to why it’s so difficult to believe in God: consider this – all ideas about gods, natural forces, our world, everything, is the product of our brains. Your assurance of God’s existence comes about through the firing of neurons in your brain. The caveman’s belief in the Lightning God, the ancient Egyptian’s belief in Ra and the diety of his ruler, your belief in God, and my belief in gravity are all products of the human mind. Products of the brain (ideas) are communicated to others, who in turn form an idea in their brains. When the person dies, the brain and all those wonderful ideas also die, except for ideas which have been communicated to others, in which case an “idea” can live on for a long, long time. Just because the idea sounds really good to a lot of people, answers a lot of questions, and is passed around from person to person, doesn’t mean it is reality. (I won’t get into the theoretical “meme” and “collective conscious” stuff, which could show that if enough people believe something, it is true in a way because it becomes some sort of cloud of consciousness or something; through these arguments, God can be shown to exist, not as “God” but as an archetype. Of course, all of this is just ideas in the brain, too!)
Maybe evolution and the Big Bang don’t explain to our satisfaction why the world is the way it is, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that since we can’t yet explain things fully, therefore there is some supernatural force that makes things the way they are. The argument “how else could the world get so complex, there must be a God” is illogical. I can’t explain how my radio works, I take it apart and read up on electronics, but I still can’t figure it out, so it must work by some supernatural force. See how silly this sounds? And then to make the leap that the supernatural force actually loves me and has provided a way for me to never die! Well, sign me up.
I’ve changed my mind, it’s not difficult to believe in God at all, it’s obviously very easy for many people and a way to have some questions answered and some personal peace. It’s quite easy to believe in God or a supernatural force; it appears to be hard-wired into our brains. It is much more difficult to attempt to explain everything without any supernatural intervention.
Presumably you mean Satan, in which case I have a small quibble: God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent; he is the Creator of all things. If you read your Bible, you’ll realize that Satan is not God’s rival–he’s God’s employee.
This is why I was talking about evolution and Creation as two different things.
As revtim said, God could have created the Universe via the Big bang, then let evolution produce what we have today.
That’s what many Christians believe.
In this case, Genesis is not literal (and remember that you agree that some of the Bible is parables etc.).
If you say that Genesis is literal then there is a problem.
You have a book that says two humans were created the same week as the Earth was. The Bible also says that (following the maths of the lines of descent) the Earth is about 4,000 years old.
Plus all creatures entered the ark during the flood.
But we have evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, that dinosaurs existed before man (and dinosaurs would not have fitted onto the Ark!).
So you need to answer my earlier multiple-choice question:
The evidence doesn’t exist.
The evidence doesn’t support evolution.
God (or Satan) planted the evidence to mislead us.
I have read somewhere {and it satisfies me} that the earth is billions of years old.
But God cleaned it off, added oceans, and made mankind around 4,000 years ago.
There was another thread which listed the links and Bible verses, but IMHO, some folks aren’t meant to believe, God has decided who will and won’t become a “christian”.
So…thats why some people “won’t believe”, God’s behind it all.
I’m not sure how to say this, and I hope it comes out right. After a long day of thinking about this thread and all that’s been said here, and racking my brain to see if there was anything more that I could say to respond to you guys that was anymore meaningful than what’s been said, I realized that my brain is fried. The reason I started this thread was not to pretend to be some all-knowing, highly intellectual, educated person like some of you, but instead I started it to hear what you thought, hear your views, try to understand them and to hopefully get a better understanding of where you all are coming from. I feel I have done that and I feel I have said as much as I could say. I fully admit I’m not as knowledgeable as some of you, but I do feel I have a certain degree of wisdom, which is telling me to step back, absorb everything that’s been discussed here, and learn from it. It’s not so important to me to argue why or how we got here, but , to realize we ARE here, and we’re here together to love one another, help one another, and gain a better understand of each other. Some of you may feel I’m copping out, so be it. I’ve learned a heck of a lot from you guys, received a ton of information and have thoroughly enjoyed every bit of this debate. I’ve gained a new respect for your points of view and I’m grateful that there is a forum where that could be possible to achieve. I still hold my ground on the “knowing” thing, and I hold firm my belief in God and his love for me, and for you. I also want to add I appreciate the ones here who were especially kind to me in this debate and didn’t attack me for my views. Thanks and God Bless.
I just would like to add that this has been one of the more civilized debates on religion that I have seen here. And I think that was a gracious way to bow out.
You’re right that it was very polite on both sides.
Nevertheless, it wasn’t much of a debate.
Dreamer: God exists, I know it and I want everyone to share in my happiness. (I’m a fundamentalist)
SDMB atheists: OK, thanks. How do you explain the evidence for evolution and the age of the Earth?
Dreamer: Can you tell me why the Earth rotates a certain way that is in perfect alignment to the sun and moon, and how it came to be?
SDMB atheists: Their alignment isn’t perfect. Gravity explains orbits. Now which of these is true:
The evidence doesn’t exist.
The evidence doesn’t support evolution.
God (or Satan) planted the evidence to mislead us.
(Note that Dreamer herself suggested that Satan could be involved.)
Dreamer: My brain hurts. I need to absorb what has been said. It’s not so important to me to argue why or how we got here. Bye.
I’m not trying to be sarcastic, and I think Dreamer has coped better with logical scientific thought better than any other fundamentalist I’ve ever spoken to (and there have been many of those).
But don’t these religious fanatics depress you?
I’m a teacher at a school founded by a Christian. We have a Chaplain, weekly Christian worship (us atheists either attend politely, or work quietly) and a Church Bishop is automatically one of our trustees.
However our religious classes teach comparative religion and discuss all major faiths.
Our Christian biology teachers teach evolution. They looked bewildered when I asked about creationism. “That’s a religious belief, not a science subject.”
Why do fundamentalists have to teach unthinking obedience?
I never said that I want everyone to share in my happiness or that I was a fundamentalist.
I belive God created the world and every living thing in it. God created the Earth in 6 days (one day is as a thousand years to God) and rested on the 7th, so I believe Earth is about 8 thousand years old.
Dreamer: Can you tell me why the Earth rotates a certain way that is in perfect alignment to the sun and moon, and how it came to be?
I am NOT a religious fanatic! Seriously, I’m not.
What is it you want me to say that would satisfy you glee?
