Hmm. I’m sure my Scottish friends would be offended at being called Brits. Of course they don’t like Scotch either…
On a somewhat related note, I noticed when I was in the UK, it was ok to call people from China, Japan, Korea, etc. “Orientals,” while in the US I know of many who would consider it extremely offensive. Of course a lot of people from Pakistan, India, and elsewhere on the subcontinent are offended by the American usage of “Asian” referring solely to East Asians (incidentally, from my limited experience, UK usage of Asian refers only to South Asians).
Sigh. Yet another “open-minded” person who resorts to their own type of slur. Does he shoot at you every day, Ellen? If not, then you should not call him a bigot. On the other hand, your coworker (if he really was in Vietnam during the war) probably had to dodge bullets fired by the people he refers to as “gooks” multiple times a day.
My grandfather served in WWII. He got shot down and was held prisoner in China several times, and he still refers to the enemy as “Japs” (the Chinese actually would fight amongst themselves to turn him in, because the US offered very nice rewards for the safe return of their soldiers). He doesn’t necessarily use the word in a demeaning sense, it’s just what everyone called them at the time because they were the “bad guys,” when deep down he knew they were just doing the same thing as he was… fighting for their country.
If my grandfather still called Afro-Americans “niggers,” is he using the term in a “demeaning” sense? Of course. His motivation may be pure, but his usage is demeaning.
Ellen We’ve done “gook” here. Search for the term.
Goes back to very late 1800’s in Philippines I think.
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*Originally posted by samclem *
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If my grandfather still called Afro-Americans “niggers,” is he using the term in a “demeaning” sense? Of course. His motivation may be pure, but his usage is demeaning.
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Afro-Americans is considered offensive nowadays, at least by my friends. Are you meaning to be demeaning?
I’m not sure about that. I have a friend whose grandpa used that term into the 90s, just because he was 93 himself and lived a very isolated life. I think his entire mass-media exposure was radio sermons, period, and even then not much. He lived on a farm in the middle of Kansas. I don’t think he was trying to be demeaning. He was just startlingly ignorant.
I think being demeaning - like being offensive, and many other things - lies in intent. I remember using the word Negro (as opposed to black) a few times in a 4th grade written report about Arthur Ashe. [The reason was mostly that most of the books I used were a few decades old, before some changes in terminology. I also felt somehow it sounded more polite than ‘blacks.’] This being on Long Island, nobody would’ve been around to be offended anyway. (Hooray for living in the new Birmingham.)
Any guitar players here ever heard of a Jap Strat? It’s not an offensive term at all, it’s just quick to say than “Japanese-made Stratocaster.”
But it’s hard to judge someone else’s intent. Either way, in the case of words like nigger or Jap - given how popularly known their connotations are - you’ll rarely find someone using them who isn’t trying to be demeaning.
Possibly to the Japanese, but from the American context I don’t really know that I would characterize all use of the word “Jap” it as intentionally demeaning. I have several fishing equipment and rod building books from the mid 30’s to late 40’s and the common use of the term “Jap silk” and “Jap gut” (regarding fishing lines) seem to be used in shorthand and technically descriptive way to identify the item being discussed as “Japanese” without any demeaning intent and some of this use was pre-war.
“Jap” was common — and neutral — usage in U.S. newspaper headlines from the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905) onward. Like Brit or US, it’s a space-saver.
I’m a British expatriot living in Silicon Valley, and don’t take any offense at the term Brit. You are quite welcome to say it to my face, even sven. It neatly sidesteps any problems of distinguishing between Scots, Welsh, and English. I had a Scots father and an English mother, so Brit suits me very well. It’s much better than an older Americanism, “Britisher”.
What does make me wince, however, is when Americans, in public, put on what they imagine to be a British accent. Local newscasters will often try this around the time of the (tennis) Championships at Wimbledon – you can catch them slipping into what they probably imagine is a hilarious impression of an upper-class English accent. Alex Trebek, of the TV game show Jeopardy, also does this, not only with British accents but also with Australian, German, etc.
The Memorial Day Concert from the West Lawn of the US Capitol in Washington DC, shown on PBS earlier this evening, had a musical tribute to the various branches of the US Armed Services. In the lead-in to this, they acknowledged the close alliance with the British, and the Union Jack appeared on the TV screen. The on-stage MC slipped into a “British” accent. Ouch (from my perspective, at least).
I do not wish to imply that malice is intended in any of these examples.
However, if the above-mentioned TV personalities were reporting on celebrations for the Chinese New Year, and slipped into what they perceived to be a Chinese accent, what do you think would happen?
It has a lot to do with unspoken conventions about relationship and power.
I lived in the States in the sixties and accepted without demur terms like limey and references to the sun setting on the British Empire etc… Americans similarly accepted humorous usage of damned yankees and intimations that they would have had a much better deal if they had stayed in the British fold.
Because of the long term positive relationship between US and UK, such banter was acceptable. If I had been German or Japanese such mild abuse would be seen as reprehensible.
This is why Hollywood has found it convenient to cast many many movie baddies with English accents or British actors- if the preponderance of baddies had come almost exclusively from another nation it would have been seen as racial stereotyping and hence unacceptable.
So, Brit (and even limey) are aimed with affection and accepted with humor.
‘Jap’ is rarely aimed with affection, nor accepted with humor.
No reason why they should be offended. The term "British’ was largely constructed to contain the English/Welsh with the Scots in the gradual Union that became Great Britain. Although the concept of ‘Ancient Briton’ existed, this was not applied to the medieval/early modern inhabitants of the islands.
Before the |Union English/Welsh were referred to as English generally (Welsh specifying only Welsh but many references to ‘the English’ in historical texts contained the Welsh as well.) Scots were Scots. After the Union we were Brits.
Now to call an Irishman a Brit is another matter. There is even resistance to having to call the Isles the British Isles.
As a brit I prefer the word to limey, or pom for example, and would indeed use it to describe myself, as in this reply. I definitely agree with Antonius Block about the accent, no one here ever talks like that.
“Gook” is an old term. According to this page, it has a lineage of slur going back to the nineteenth century (used originally against women, referring to prostitutes), and has been used against both Asians and Polynesians.
Can’t find the earlier thread discussing this, sorry.
(Hooray for living in the new Birmingham.)