# Why is Judy Garland a gay icon? Something she said or her work just appeals to gays? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473 "2005-05-11T23:11:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/21 "2005-05-12T14:09:56Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > On what authority is that Garland-Minnelli anecdote? A biography of Minnelli that appeared on Turner Classic Movies. I can’t recall the who actually wrote the script, but Minnelli’s sexual preference has been pretty much common knowledge for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/22 "2005-05-12T19:11:17Z")
Well, what _was_ his sexual preference? How is this knowable? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/23 "2005-05-12T19:33:58Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > On a tangent, since it’s propably been answered a million times before and doesn’t merit its own thread: What’s the deal with Streisand? Never mind Streisand; whatintheheck is with Dinah Shore and the Dinah Shore Women’s Weekend in Palm Springs? I mean hordes of lesbian women cutting loose is the ultimate Girls Gone Wild video, but how in the heck did that get started? As far as I know she wasn’t a dyke. As for celebrities that should have been but weren’t gay icons, I’m surprise Katherine Hepburn doesn’t rank up there Not that she was gay, but she did pretty much pioneer the whole brash, outspoken, anti-marriage and children, pants-wearing, minimum makeup persona long before Ellen DeGeneres was even a wiggling zygote; she was sort of the anti-Donna Reed. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/24 "2005-05-12T19:59:49Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > As for celebrities that should have been but weren’t gay icons, I’m surprise Katherine Hepburn doesn’t rank up there Oh, she does. Name a diva from the Golden Age of Hollywood and she has or had her devotees among the homorati. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/25 "2005-05-12T20:02:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Judy’s father, Frank Gumm, was also gay. Had Liza had children with Peter Allen or David Gest, it’s very likely that a vortex would have opened and all of the world would have become gay. For God’s sake, don’t tell them The Agenda! ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/26 "2005-05-12T20:30:37Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Well, what _was_ his sexual preference? How is this knowable? Generally speaking, when straight guys fool around on their wives, it’s with women. Or to paraphrase a quote from the play/movie _Torch Song Trilogy_, “I suppose bisexual men are possible, but it’s very rare that you hear of a man sneaking out while his boyfriend is sleeping to go have sex with his girlfriend.” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/27 "2005-05-12T20:33:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > For God’s sake, don’t tell them The Agenda! Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/28 "2005-05-12T20:37:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ick. I’d prefer either a wine and cheese party with Chopin playing or a mosh pit with Front 242 headlining with Ministry. Foam party. Blech. I don’t need to go for a pretense to feel people up. I just get their permission. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/29 "2005-05-12T20:37:58Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Can we make that a Balloon Party instead? It’s just that bubble foam gives me a really nasty rash… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/30 "2005-05-12T20:39:19Z")
_whispers_ Folks, this is why we haven’t taken over the world yet…like herding cats, honestly… _whisper_ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/31 "2005-05-13T00:25:30Z")
Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn’t have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch. Not that she couldn’t cut someone down to size, but it never overshadowed her vulnerability. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/32 "2005-05-13T00:45:01Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Let them know. Once we get Anne Heche mated by George Michael, there will be no stopping us, and we shall create a FOAM PARTY THAT WILL LAST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! MUWAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you’re happy. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/33 "2005-05-13T00:49:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you’re happy. That usually doesn’t happen to a woman until I date her. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/34 "2005-05-13T00:51:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Generally speaking, when straight guys fool around on their wives, it’s with women. Or to paraphrase a quote from the play/movie _Torch Song Trilogy_, “I suppose bisexual men are possible, but it’s very rare that you hear of a man sneaking out while his boyfriend is sleeping to go have sex with his girlfriend.” _sheepishly raises his hand_ Well… not exactly, but something like that 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/35 "2005-05-13T06:06:57Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn’t have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch. Maybe not actually calling her a bitch, but check out Mel Tormé’s book _The Other Side of the Rainbow_, about working on her CBS show, or Dirk Bogarde’s account, in his autobiography, about what she was like when he made a movie with her. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/36 "2005-05-13T06:08:25Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And had an affair with Peter Allen while the latter was married to li’l Liza, if I remember my gay scandal iconage correctly… No, that was husband number four. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/37 "2005-05-13T07:16:27Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, that image, that right there? That just rendered me asexual. I hope you’re happy. Really? It got me kinda hot. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/38 "2005-05-13T12:48:28Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Of all the gay icons, Judy was the only one who didn’t have a reputation (deserved or otherwise) for being a bitch. Not that she couldn’t cut someone down to size, but it never overshadowed her vulnerability. Oops, I forgot about Marilyn. Most people who knew her describe her as “sweet.” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/39 "2005-05-13T23:11:32Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Maybe not actually calling her a bitch, but check out Mel Tormé’s book _The Other Side of the Rainbow_, about working on her CBS show, or Dirk Bogarde’s account, in his autobiography, about what she was like when he made a movie with her. Haven’t read Bogarde’s book but what I’ve read of Torme’s reeks of bitterness. According to a number of sources quoted in _Rainbow’s End: The Judy Garland Show_ and other Garland books (and as a side note, should there be any more Garland books may we have a moratorium on the use of the word “rainbow” in the title?), Torme was fired for cause from her CBS show. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473/40 "2005-05-14T01:02:24Z")
I may be totally wrong, but I heard that she slept with at least one woman. I don’t really remember where I heard it, but I seem to recall reading it somewhere. I don’t know if this has anything to do with the OP, just thought i’d mention it. Does anyone know if this is true? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-judy-garland-a-gay-icon-something-she-said-or-her-work-just-appeals-to-gays/303473.md?page=3)