# Why is Latin America not part of "Western Civilization"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455 "2010-02-03T00:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/1 "2010-02-03T00:12:45Z")
I’m starting on Pat Buchanan’s book [_State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and the Conquest of America,_](http://www.amazon.com/State-Emergency-Invasion-Conquest-America/dp/0312360037/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265155553&sr=8-1) which is clearly intended as a more America-focused sequel to his [_The Death of the West;_](http://www.amazon.com/Death-West-Populations-Immigrant-Civilization/dp/0312302592/ref=pd_sim_b_2) and what immediately strikes me is that Buchanan appears to see complete equivalence between the Muslim immigrants in Europe and the Latino immigrants in the U.S., as being threats to “Western Civilization.” Even though the Mexicans, Brazilians, etc., have a European-derived culture like we do, and speak a European language (Spanish, or Portuguese), and have exactly the same religion as Buchanan himself (Roman Catholic). This reminds me of how Samuel P. Huntington, in [_The Clash of Civilizations,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations) posited a “Western” civilization that includes Spain and Portugal and the U.S., but **not** Latin America. Now, waitaminnit: How is LA any less a part of “Western Civilization” than the U.S. is? ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/2 "2010-02-03T00:16:42Z")
Not to slight Latin America, but it doesn’t have much of an influence on the rest of the world, does it? I used to try skipping the whole Latin America section of the Economist, and the rest of it still made the same sense. Buchanan is certainly a conservative, but much of the time he still makes pretty good sense. Overall, he seems pretty well informed. I don’t want him running things because of his core beliefs, but his reading of world politics seems pretty accurate. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/3 "2010-02-03T00:17:34Z")
I think Latin America is thought to be more mixed in with the Native blood and as such were not fully Westernized in the way North America was. Generally the inability to form a stable government is cited as a reason. Argentina was pretty much there before the collapse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/4 "2010-02-03T00:18:12Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Not to slight Latin America, but it doesn’t have much of an influence on the rest of the world, does it? I used to try skipping the whole Latin America section of the Economist, and the rest of it still made the same sense. So, even less should that make it a destructive, anti-Western influence on U.S. culture – right? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/5 "2010-02-03T00:29:39Z")
I think that what Huntington, at least, argues is that the distinction between “Latin American” civilization on the one hand, and “Western” civilization on the other, have to do with differing attitudes about politics and economics; that Latin American countries are, at the same time, both more autocratic and more patron-client/less capitalist than “The West”. He does point out that of all the other civilizations he mentions, Latin America is closest to the West, and the two civilizations are converging. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/6 "2010-02-03T00:31:40Z")
Many of the poorer, more rural parts of Europe are (or at least until recently were) little better examples of “western” civilization than Latin America, but they get taken with the rest of Europe as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/7 "2010-02-03T01:32:28Z")
Frankly, I always thought it was included. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/8 "2010-02-03T01:35:59Z")
Argentina, maybe. Chile if we really stretch things. Seriously, I think the issue is more of an economic one than anything else. Latin Americans are largely poor and many are more ethnically Native American and/or African. Politically, the region has had a rocky relationship with Democracy, but then much of Europe had, too, in the early to mid 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/9 "2010-02-03T01:40:00Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Frankly, I always thought it was included. Yup. Overwhelming majority of the population speaks Western (European) languages? Check. Overwhelming majority of the population practices Western religion? Check. Overwhelming majority of the population is white? …Hmm, I think we may have found the source of the anomaly, at least in Buchanan’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/10 "2010-02-03T01:48:49Z")
The review of that book on the Amazon web site mentions “Aztlan”, and how Mexican Americans hope to recapture the lands that were allegedly part of that region historically. Now, I don’t know enough about the Aztlan movement to know that it’s an attempt to regenerate Native American culture, or just an attempt to establish Mexican culture/control in that area. Since most of the LA immigrants to the US are Mexican, this might be what Buchanan is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/11 "2010-02-03T02:03:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The review of that book on the Amazon web site mentions “Aztlan”, and how Mexican Americans hope to recapture the lands that were allegedly part of that region historically. Now, I don’t know enough about the Aztlan movement to know that it’s an attempt to regenerate Native American culture, or just an attempt to establish Mexican culture/control in that area. Since most of the LA immigrants to the US are Mexican, this might be what Buchanan is talking about. I don’t know much about it either, but I would be very, very surprised if it had anything at all to do with, say, reviving the Nahuatl language or the worship (with or without blood sacrifice) of the old Aztec gods. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/12 "2010-02-03T02:12:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The review of that book on the Amazon web site mentions “Aztlan”, and how Mexican Americans hope to recapture the lands that were allegedly part of that region historically. Would it be too cynical or unjust of me to suspect that Buchanan might be trying to conflate in his readers’ imagination the [_reconquista_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)) movement, which appears to be a pretty negligible political force, with Latino immigration _per se_, which of course is quite a powerful political and cultural force but seems to be overall very little concerned with the _reconquista_ movement? That way, every poor shlub of an ex-corn farmer who sneaks across the border to pick tomatoes for American agribusiness firms to keep his family from starving and maybe someday own a house and a car and a television can be cast as a sinister foot soldier in the alleged war on Western civilization. Enemies at the gates! Enemies at the gates! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/13 "2010-02-03T02:17:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Would it be too cynical or unjust of me to suspect that Buchanan might be trying to conflate in his readers’ imagination the [_reconquista_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)) movement, which appears to be a pretty negligible political force, with Latino immigration _per se_, which of course is quite a powerful political and cultural force but seems to be overall very little concerned with the _reconquista_ movement? > > That way, every poor shlub of an ex-corn farmer who sneaks across the border to pick tomatoes for American agribusiness firms to keep his family from starving and maybe someday own a house and a car and a television can be cast as a sinister foot soldier in the alleged war on Western civilization. Enemies at the gates! Enemies at the gates! Furthermore, even if the Mexicans somehow **do** manage to “reconquer” the Southwestern U.S., they would not thereby taking it away **from** “Western Civilziation.” It would be more like transferring Alsace-Lorraine from France to Germany yet again – in civilizational terms, strictly intramural. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/14 "2010-02-03T02:20:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t know much about it either, but I would be very, very surprised if it had anything at all to do with, say, reviving the Nahuatl language or the worship (with or without blood sacrifice) of the old Aztec gods. Short story: the “fair and balanced” Fox news grabbed a fringe idea and ran it as if a good number of did Latinos supported it. [http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/](http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/) > [@](#): > > The Myth of Aztlán > Conservative talk show hosts are claiming that Mexicans are trying to take over the US, but nothing could be further from the truth. > > … > > That day’s topic was on the supposed desire of Mexican-Americans to create a new country, sometimes referred to as Aztlán, out of the American Southwest and northern Mexico. Sensationalism quickly superceded fair and balanced journalism to present a frighteningly biased account of the threat posed by immigration. Had it been the only time I’d come across such a view I would have easily forgotten about it, but it wasn’t. The desire of a few individuals to create a new nation has been presented inaccurately on popular news programs and widely read articles. The continued propagation of such a biased view is dangerous because it stigmatizes millions of immigrants as traitors to the United States – and it contradicts all evidence available on Mexican immigration. It is even worse when one takes into account that even organizations that were branded as radical among Latinos distance themselves from proponents of the Aztlan plan. > **[Mecha Fact-Myths](https://www.mexica.net/mecha/MechaFact-Myths.php)** > [@](#): > > As a MEChA alumni and as a former advisor to a University MEChA chapter, it has become painfully clear that many people in the Chicana/o, Latina/o community and others do not know what MEChA stands for or believes in. In fact, many believe that MEChA has been trapped in amber since the 1970’s. > > I have provided here a breakdown of the myths being perpetrated by the right-wing and Fox News, which are unfortunately being picked up without review by most other news organizations. A few things must be noted about the sources of Fox News’ information in regards to MEChA. The first news organization to cover Bustamante’s MEChA ties was the Fox News network. Fox News cut and pasted a tirade from the anti-Mexican Sherman Oaks, CA-based nativist group Voices of Citizens Together (VCT) website. You’ve may have noticed that Fox News’ reports are completely unsourced. All other news organizations ran with Fox’s story. > > Haven’t the media learned anything from the New York Times and Jayson Blair? > > Myth #1: MEChA’s motto is: “¡Por La Raza Todo, Fuera de La Raza Nada!” > > Fact: MEChA’s motto is: “La Union Hace La Fuerza.” > > Myth #2: MEChA is a racist organization because its constitution is “El Plan de Aztlan” and its sole aims are to implement the goals printed in El Plan de Aztlan. > > Facts: MEChA has a formal constitution; “El Plan de Aztlan” is a document that was written before MEChA was established. MEChA’s founding document is El Plan de Santa Barbara, not El Plan de Aztlan. > > El Plan de Aztlan is an historical document of the Chicano movement. As such MEChA would not renounce the collective history of our peoples Civil Rights struggle by denouncing what is inarguably the true history of the southwest. The facts are that the southwest was invaded upon by Anglos under the white supremacist banner of “Manifest Destiny” in 1836 and 1846. The invasion was so brutal that Irish-American soldiers deserted in droves and formed the St. Patrick’s brigade and fought against U.S. forces in defense of the Mexican peasantry (anyone ever wonder why there are so many redheads in Northern Mexico?). People’s ideologies may change, but we would not denounce El Plan de Aztlan, just like many in the African-American community would not denounce the legacy of the Black Panthers or Malcolm X in the current African-American struggles for Human and Civil rights in the U.S. today. > > Myth #3: MEChA’s goals are to give the southwest back to Mexico. > > Facts: MEChA is just as critical of Mexico’s politicies as they are of the United States. Mechistas are quite aware that it takes two to tango, and that it is as a result of Mexican and U.S. economic policies that many Mechistas of Mexican descent are in the U.S. MEChA is a supporter of the EZLN, thus we are quite aware that racism and class warfare are as rampant in Mexico as they are in the US. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/15 "2010-02-03T02:26:51Z")
I have yet to see a non-racially based definition of Western Civilization that can include Eastern Europe/Russia while excluding Latin America. My guess is that race is a big component to how people are making these definitions. Personally, I’ve always considered Latin America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa to all be a part of Western Civilization. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/16 "2010-02-03T02:30:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think that what Huntington, at least, argues is that the distinction between “Latin American” civilization on the one hand, and “Western” civilization on the other, have to do with differing attitudes about politics and economics; that Latin American countries are, at the same time, both more autocratic and more patron-client/less capitalist than “The West”. > > He does point out that of all the other civilizations he mentions, Latin America is closest to the West, and the two civilizations are converging. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Argentina, maybe. Chile if we really stretch things. > > Seriously, I think the issue is more of an economic one than anything else. Latin Americans are largely poor and many are more ethnically Native American and/or African. Politically, the region has had a rocky relationship with Democracy, but then much of Europe had, too, in the early to mid 20th century. The question of whether South America is more capitalist or socialist aside, it bears mentioning that both capitalism and socialism are Western traditions. So that can’t be it. It is certainly an issue of race for nativists and anti-immigrant activists. However, that’s not to say that “socialism,” as bandied about by the American right, has nothing to do with it. Since the labels “socialist” and “communist” became epithets during the Cold War, they have routinely been used to attack those who fight for civil rights. Martin Luther King was attacked as such. And there is a great quote from an American general during the Cold War who said something to the effect of, “My problem with the Soviets is not communism _per se_; it is their fundamentally different racial makeup” [note: this is a paraphrase; I’ll try to find the actual quote and source]. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/17 "2010-02-03T02:34:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think that what Huntington, at least, argues is that the distinction between “Latin American” civilization on the one hand, and “Western” civilization on the other, have to do with differing attitudes about politics and economics; that Latin American countries are, at the same time, both more autocratic and more patron-client/less capitalist than “The West”. This is a bizarre definition. Crony capitalism, socialism and communism as modern economic theories for running a nation-state economy all originated in the west. How can adopting economic theories that originate in Western Civilization somehow make a culture not part of Western Civilization? Edit: **sleeping** makes the same point with regard to economic theories above. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/18 "2010-02-03T03:03:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Short story: the “fair and balanced” Fox news grabbed a fringe idea and ran it as if a good number of did Latinos supported it. > > [http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/](http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/) > It is even worse when one takes into account that even organizations that were branded as radical among Latinos distance themselves from proponents of the Aztlan plan. > > [Mecha Fact-Myths](http://www.mexica.net/mecha/MechaFact-Myths.php) Hmm. For something that was kept at a distance, there seems to be a certain, shall we say, fondness for that document by MECHA? From the [MECHA website:](http://www.nationalmecha.org/philosophy.html#historical%20foundation) > [@](#): > > Both El Plan de Aztlán (EPA) and El Plan de Santa Barbara (EPSB) served as the historical foundation for the establishment of a viable Chicana/Chicano Movimiento and are therefore fundamental to the MEChA Philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/19 "2010-02-03T03:10:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hmm. For something that was kept at a distance, there seems to be a certain, shall we say, fondness for that document by MECHA? > From the [MECHA website:](http://www.nationalmecha.org/philosophy.html#historical%20foundation) Mecha is even ahead of that assumption. > [@](#): > > Myth #3: MEChA’s goals are to give the southwest back to Mexico. > > Facts: MEChA is just as critical of Mexico’s politicies as they are of the United States. Mechistas are quite aware that it takes two to tango, and that it is as a result of Mexican and U.S. economic policies that many Mechistas of Mexican descent are in the U.S. MEChA is a supporter of the EZLN, thus we are quite aware that racism and class warfare are as rampant in Mexico as they are in the US. As the context shows, they are not going to just reject the past, but they are not going to follow that plan nowadays. In any case, the only reason to bring Mecha was an example of a radical group that is not supporting the current Aztlan proponents. > [@](#): > > Myth #6: MEChA is affiliated with The Voz de Aztlan website. > > Fact: MEChAs all over California have denounced The Voz de Azltan for its rabid homophobia. Pat B. mentioning the Aztlan movement like if it is supported by many in the Latino community is Bananas. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/20 "2010-02-03T03:25:50Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I have yet to see a non-racially based definition of Western Civilization that can include Eastern Europe/Russia while excluding Latin America. My guess is that race is a big component to how people are making these definitions. > > Personally, I’ve always considered Latin America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa to all be a part of Western Civilization. [Huntington’s scheme](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilization) classifies Russia and (most of) Eastern Europe as the “Orthodox” civilization, separate from the “Western.” The MENA is part of the “Islamic.” (And, as for the latter, the Arabic-speakers of North Africa, etc., probably really do feel more fellowship with, say, the Iranians and the Pakistanis than with the Europeans.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455.md?page=2)