# Why is Latin America not part of "Western Civilization"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455 "2010-02-03T00:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/21 "2010-02-03T03:31:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Short story: the “fair and balanced” Fox news grabbed a fringe idea and ran it as if a good number of did Latinos supported it. > > [http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/](http://www.alternet.org/story/17653/) > It is even worse when one takes into account that even organizations that were branded as radical among Latinos distance themselves from proponents of the Aztlan plan. > > [Mecha Fact-Myths](http://www.mexica.net/mecha/MechaFact-Myths.php) And I recall when Sonia Sotomayor was nominated to the SCOTUS, the RW was making much of her membership in [La Raza,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Council_of_La_Raza) as if it were the Latino equivalent of the Klan, when it’s actually the Latino equivalent of the NAACP. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/22 "2010-02-03T03:32:18Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > This is a bizarre definition. Crony capitalism, socialism and communism as modern economic theories for running a nation-state economy all originated in the west. How can adopting economic theories that originate in Western Civilization somehow make a culture not part of Western Civilization? Because for him, “Western Civilization” is a term of art…it means something beyond just “was created in the west”. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/23 "2010-02-03T03:44:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Huntington’s scheme](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilization) classifies Russia and (most of) Eastern Europe as the “Orthodox” civilization, separate from the “Western.” The MENA is part of the “Islamic.” (And, as for the latter, the Arabic-speakers of North Africa, etc., probably really do feel more fellowship with, say, the Iranians and the Pakistanis than with the Europeans.) Then all he’s doing is categorizing subdivisions in what I would classify as Western Civilization. If that’s all we’re doing, then yes, I would agree that Northwestern Europe, Scandanavia, Southern Europe, Eastern Europe and MENA can all be thought of as distinct subdivisions. And since Latin America is largely descended from Southern European culture while the US is largely descended from Northwestern European culture, you could make a meaningful distinction between the two. But the idea that all these regions have somewhat distinct cultures is so obvious, that I thought we must have been talking about larger classifications. [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Because for him, “Western Civilization” is a term of art…it means something beyond just “was created in the west.” [/QUOTE] I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/24 "2010-02-03T03:47:37Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I mean, in his book, “western civilization” isn’t just “the civilization that people in the west have”. “Western civilization” is, in the book, a specific set of attitudes, values, and historical experiences. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/25 "2010-02-03T03:50:59Z")
Ok, I went and looked at the Wiki file on Huntington, and it says that Latin America may be included with Western Civilization, so why is he being trotted out here? ETA: > [@](#): > > I mean, in his book, “western civilization” isn’t just “the civilization that people in the west have”. “Western civilization” is, in the book, a specific set of attitudes, values, and historical experiences. And crony capitalism, socialism and communism all originate in the West (and are adopted in the West) because of specific attitudes, values and historical experiences of the West. Next you’ll be telling me that we shouldn’t think of Christianity as part of Western culture simply because it originated in the West. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/26 "2010-02-03T03:57:43Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Ok, I went and looked at the Wiki file on Huntington, and it says that Latin America may be included with Western Civilization, so why is he being trotted out here? Because it didn’t say that in his book. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/27 "2010-02-03T03:59:41Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Next you’ll be telling me that we shouldn’t think of Christianity as part of Western culture simply because it originated in the West. The Middle East, actually . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/28 "2010-02-03T04:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Because it didn’t say that in his book. [/QUOTE] Ok. I don’t see anything in this thread, that creates a meaningful distinction between, say, Spain and say, Argentina. [QUOTE=;12070376] The Middle East, actually . . . [/QUOTE] You know what I mean. Plus I consider the ME to be part of the West, anyway.😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/29 "2010-02-03T04:41:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I think Latin America is thought to be more mixed in with the Native blood and as such were not fully Westernized in the way North America was. **Africa** is “not fully Westernized.” LA is, blood and race regardless. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/30 "2010-02-03T05:23:16Z")
Wait, so, Huntington’s concept of “Western civilization” does not follow the conventional definition? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/31 "2010-02-03T05:55:36Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Ok, I went and looked at the Wiki file on Huntington, and it says that Latin America may be included with Western Civilization, so why is he being trotted out here? Ok, here’s how he defines Latin American culture in the book “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order”. > [@](#): > > _Western_ Western civilization is usually dated as emerging about AD 700 or 800. It is generally viewed by scholars as having three major components, in Europe, North America, and Latin America. > > _Latin American_ Latin America, however, has a distinct identity which differentiates it from the West. Although an offspring of European civilization, Latin America has evolved along every different path from Europe and North America. It has had a corporatist, authoritarian culture, which Europe had to a much lesser degree and North America not at all. Europe and North America both felt the effects of the Reformation and have combined Catholic and Protestant cultures. Historically, although this may be changing, Latin America has been only Catholic. Latin American civilization incorporates indigenous cultures, which did not exist in Europe, were effectively wiped out in North America, and vary in importance from Mexico, Central America, Peru and Bolivia, on the one hand, to Argentina and Chile, on the other. Latin American political evolution and economic development have differed sharply from the patterns prevailing in the North Atlantic countries. Subjectively, Latin Americans themselves are divided in their self-identifications. Some say, “Yes, we are part of the West.” Others claim, “No, we have our own unique culture.” and a large literature by Latin and North Americans elaborates their cultural differences. Latin America could be considered either a subcivilization within Western civilization or a separate civilization closely affiliated with the West and divided as to whether it belongs in the West. For an analysis focused on the international political implications of civilizations, including the relations between Latin America, on the one hand, and North America and Europe, on the other, the latter is the more appropriate and useful designation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/32 "2010-02-03T06:35:47Z")
> [@Huntington](#): > > Europe and North America both felt the effects of the Reformation and have combined Catholic and Protestant cultures. Historically, although this may be changing, Latin America has been only Catholic. He accentuates this contrast by neatly sidestepping all cultural and regional distinctions in the huge undifferentiated entity he calls “Europe”. Taking into account differences between Northern Europe (mixed Catholic and Protestant) and Southern Europe (overwhelmingly Catholic) would highlight European parallels with the North America/Latin America divide. But of course, drawing attention to parallels between Latin America and other parts of the West is exactly what Huntington doesn’t want to do in this argument. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/33 "2010-02-03T06:56:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Latin American Latin America, however, has a distinct identity which differentiates it from the West. Although an offspring of European civilization, Latin America has evolved along every different path from Europe and North America. Ok, let’s look at these. > [@](#): > > It has had a corporatist, authoritarian culture, which Europe had to a much lesser degree and North America not at all. Under which planet did Europe have a much lesser degree of corporatist authoritarianism? I seem to recall a movement of corporatist authoritarians who started a minor war called WWII. > [@](#): > > Europe and North America both felt the effects of the Reformation and have combined Catholic and Protestant cultures. Historically, although this may be changing, Latin America has been only Catholic. Southern Europe is predominantly Catholic. The Catholic church also had pretty big influence in Spain under Franco. > [@](#): > > Latin American civilization incorporates indigenous cultures, which did not exist in Europe, were effectively wiped out in North America, and vary in importance from Mexico, Central America, Peru and Bolivia, on the one hand, to Argentina and Chile, on the other. This doesn’t make any sense. He admits that there’s a wide variation in indigenous cultural influence, so how can it be used as a defining characteristic? > [@](#): > > Latin American political evolution and economic development have differed sharply from the patterns prevailing in the North Atlantic countries. Meh. It differed markedly from political evolution and economic development in North Western European countries, not in Southern European countries. > [@](#): > > Subjectively, Latin Americans themselves are divided in their self-identifications. Some say, “Yes, we are part of the West.” Others claim, “No, we have our own unique culture.” and a large literature by Latin and North Americans elaborates their cultural differences. This is his best argument for considering Latin American culture distinct. > [@](#): > > Latin America could be considered either a subcivilization within Western civilization or a separate civilization closely affiliated with the West and divided as to whether it belongs in the West. For an analysis focused on the international political implications of civilizations, including the relations between Latin America, on the one hand, and North America and Europe, on the other, the latter is the more appropriate and useful designation. This is a decent argument in that Latin America tends to act politically together on specific international issues and if you want to analyze those very specific issues, you could probably think of them as distinct. But there’s a whole host of international issues where they do not act with any kind of coordination, and thinking of them as a separate culture to analyze those issues is fairly meaningless. Really, it seems to me that he thinks European history began when the modern form of the EU came into being, and he has decided to ignore all European history prior to this in order to come up with his classifications. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/34 "2010-02-03T08:01:26Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Really, it seems to me that he thinks European history began when the modern form of the EU came into being, and he has decided to ignore all European history prior to this in order to come up with his classifications. Well, he’s using the classifications to come up with a theory of international relations to explain the current world situation, so the question I think you need to ask is, “in terms of political culture and values now, are the Western European states, America, and Canada more similar to each other than they are to the Latin American states, and are the Latin American states more similar to each other than they are to the states of Western Europe, America, and Canada?”. Because if those differences exist, those two categories of “the West” and “Latin America” work as a method of analysis. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/35 "2010-02-03T14:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > . . . indigenous cultures, which did not exist in Europe . . . Of course they did. All modern European cultures are descended from them. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/36 "2010-02-03T14:55:24Z")
Many cultural geographers would argue that the nation-state, let alone groupings of nation-states like “Latin America”, is simply the wrong scale at which to divide the world into “Western” and “Non-western”. That is, most countries have some blend of Western and non-Western elements within them, and these usually have some kind of geographic expression at the village, county, or perhaps sometimes “state” (province) level. In Latin American countries, “non-Western” is usually equated, more or less, with “indigenous”. “Indigenous” can be defined in various ways (speak language with pre-Columbian New World origins; history of neglect or exploitation by Eurpoean colonists and then the nation-state; etc.). So, by the definitions that many would agree upon, you have “non-Western” villages and counties (_municipios_, etc.), and even a few provinces (_comarcas_ of Panama, provinces of Nicaraguan Mosquitia…), and even, arguably, a few cities (Iquitos, Peru…), scattered throughout much of Latin America, but never enough to call the entire nation-state “non-Western”, although if highland Bolivia ever split with lowland Bolivia, the highlands would probably qualify – and Guatemala could come awfully close, if its small, non-indigenous elite were ever overrun. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/37 "2010-02-03T21:09:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, he’s using the classifications to come up with a theory of international relations to explain the current world situation, so the question I think you need to ask is, “in terms of political culture and values now, are the Western European states, America, and Canada more similar to each other than they are to the Latin American states, and are the Latin American states more similar to each other than they are to the states of Western Europe, America, and Canada?”. Because if those differences exist, those two categories of “the West” and “Latin America” work as a method of analysis. But according to the Wiki article, he’s including Southern Europe, Scandinavia and parts of Eastern Europe in with Western Europe/America/Canada which doesn’t really make sense to me as a way to demarcate from an IR perspective. I just don’t see how Spain or Italy are more similar to the US than they are Argentina or Chile. According to the Wiki article, he also lumps Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh and Pakistan under an uber-Islamic category, which I think is quite silly from an IR perspective, but that’s off-topic I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/38 "2010-02-03T21:20:43Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > I just don’t see how Spain or Italy are more similar to the US than they are Argentina or Chile. Maybe it’s that Spain and Italy are both advanced industrial democracies, while Argentina and Chile aren’t? Both Argentina and Chile are doing really well economically and politically now, admittedly, so I don’t know. He does bring up, in Argentina’s case, Mercosur, and says that Mexico and Chile are transforming from Latin American to Western states. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/39 "2010-02-03T21:26:21Z")
I don’t know how extensive Huntington worked out his theory. The original paper was an attempt to establish a new post-Cold War framework for looking at international relations, and he wrote the whole thing pretty late in life. The book that the essay turned into was his second to last book, just before “Who Are We”, which is about Hispanic immigration and the dangers it poses to American identity. Huntington did his best and most acclaimed work in the '50s and '60s. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455/40 "2010-02-03T23:38:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe it’s that Spain and Italy are both advanced industrial democracies, while Argentina and Chile aren’t? Both Argentina and Chile are doing really well economically and politically now, admittedly, so I don’t know. He does bring up, in Argentina’s case, Mercosur, and says that Mexico and Chile are transforming from Latin American to Western states. And Venezuela? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-latin-america-not-part-of-western-civilization/527455.md?page=3)