# Why is liberalism such a bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481 "2017-01-29T03:21:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/21 "2017-01-29T15:41:36Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Another example is barbers. You wouldn’t think that cutting somebody’s hair would be all that difficult. But in every US state, barbers must be licensed. Now, if a simple license were all that was required, that wouldn’t be so bad. But in many states, it takes **over 1,000 hours of training** to get that license! I thought you were giving alternate facts but sure enough you were correct. > **[States require more training time to become a barber than a police officer | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/)** > > It’s not just barbering, either. Many trade jobs require more hours of training than policing. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/22 "2017-01-29T16:02:09Z")
Liberalism in itself isn’t a bad thing. It’s been responsible for some of the greatest strides forward in terms of human rights, labor conditions, etc, and the world would be a far worse place without it. What is bad however is an excess of liberalism. You can’t have too much of a good thing? Yes, you assuredly can. It’s the wilder shores of liberalism that go too far: the insane political correctness (borrowing a card from the Red Guard), idiotic notions like ‘safe havens’ for students, ‘microaggressions’, word policing, all the aggressive and shrill stuff that gives liberalism a bad name and drives people into the arms of the conservatives. If there were such a thing as conservative liberalism I’d be all for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/23 "2017-01-29T16:09:26Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Short answer: Religion. The majority of people on both sides are religious. The majority of the religious on both sides are Christian. Jesus believed in peace, economic equality, and acceptance of everyone. Which party platform does that strike you as being closer to? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/24 "2017-01-29T16:13:32Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > These are the main points why liberalism is bad. Note that these are often connected to each other, and intermingle. > > 1. Liberals have an incredibly strong, sometimes delusional belief in the power of government – a belief that sometimes borders on religious worship. Whenever ANYTHING goes wrong, regardless of what it is (say a financial advisor defrauds people, or a mortuary ships the wrong body, or an industrial accident, etc.) the cry from liberals is virtually always “More regulation!” – i.e., more government power. “There ought to be a law!” – the belief that government can fix anything. > > 2. Liberals have a stupendous arrogance in their own belief system, skill, and brains. They believe that they, and by extension the government, know what is best for other people. > > 3. They very often have an incredible disdain, disgust, and intolerance, sometimes even hatred, for people whose beliefs do not match their own. It was this that led Hilary Clinton to speak of the “deplorables.” It was this that led Barack Obama, in 2008, to speak of people “clinging to guns or religion.” It is very common for liberals to speak of “fly-over country” – the part of the country that has predominately different views than their own, and therefore is good for nothing, and not worth visiting. In the last few years, this attitude has often manifested itself in thinking that promoting traditional values and morals is “intolerance,” “hatred,” and “bigotry.” > > 4. Liberals have an irresistible urge to meddle in the lives of other people. Witness things like seatbelt laws, helmet laws, and child seat laws. Another example is barbers. You wouldn’t think that cutting somebody’s hair would be all that difficult. But in every US state, barbers must be licensed. Now, if a simple license were all that was required, that wouldn’t be so bad. But in many states, it takes **over 1,000 hours of training** to get that license! > > 5. Liberals have a very frightened, paranoid view of the world, and in many cases, a very twisted view of reality. Every single time that gun laws are loosened, liberals scream to high heaven that there will be gun battles in the streets, rivers of blood will be flowing in the gutters, etc. Nothing remotely close to that has ever happened – but it hasn’t stopped a lot of liberals from continuing to predict such things. Talking about guns specifically, liberals often talk like very young children – i.e., if they can’t see physically something, then it doesn’t exist. This is why some are well-nigh paralyzed with fear over somebody openly carrying a gun, but if the gun is concealed, they’re ok, simply because they can’t actually see it. > This general principle of not seeing reality clearly is why liberals can’t understand that expanding welfare programs is a bad idea. Somehow, they just can’t seem to understand that if you subsidize something, you get more of it. If the government subsidizes jobs, by getting rid of unnecessary regulations that stand in the way of creating and growing companies, then you get more jobs. If you subsidize “not working,” by expanding social programs, then naturally you get more “not working.” > > As I said, these impulses often work together and reinforce each other. > > Humor can be an important tool for getting truths across in a non-threatening way. Here’s a cartoon that illustrates several of these points. We all know the image of a cowboy in the Old West–here’s the “OSHA-approved cowboy.” > [http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/MiscTemp/Cowboy\_after\_OSHA.jpg](http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/MiscTemp/Cowboy_after_OSHA.jpg) As a centrist, your point would seem to be that the problem with liberals is that they’re the same as conservatives. You have to go libertarian to escape the items you listed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/25 "2017-01-29T16:44:16Z")
When I was a kid, my father, a former 1960s campus activist, told me the following: “A liberal wants to give the slaves better working conditions. A radical wants to free them.” Now, personally I think Dad was overstating things for the purpose of argument, as was his wont - the man liked to keep me on my toes - but there is something to that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/26 "2017-01-29T17:07:39Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Why are libs the boogey-man under the conservative’s beds? For the same reason conservatives are the boogey-man under conservative’s beds. Non-existent budgetary restraint. We as a nation got screwed by things like Obama Care. We were promised lower premiums and a retention of our doctors. I was under-employed at the time and those were real dollars coming out of my pocket. The difference here is that Republicans understood who the boogey-man really was and that was mismanagement by BOTH parties. There was a great deal of backlash within the party. Even if they fix Obama care we’re still stuck with trillions of dollars of debt that won’t go away. If they don’t fix it then our debt continues to climb until collapse. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/27 "2017-01-29T17:17:43Z")
I’m not religious, but many that are use is as a weapon. Its seen from all sides all through history. The religious right does not follow the teachings of their faith. It’s now a ‘I’ve got mine, get off of my cloud’ approach. The opposite of what their religion would teach them IF they cared about it. They don’t, and simply put on blinders. The denial of science and facts is quite telling. There is a wall that they hit and shut down IMHO. Because GOD will save us. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/28 "2017-01-29T17:24:16Z")
Good luck on thinking that the Republicans will be more responsible under Trump, past and current plans point to both parties having issues, but the Republicans are the ones that truly do not give a damn about the budget. > **[Donald Trump Is Right: Deficits Don’t Matter](https://newrepublic.com/article/133431/donald-trump-right-deficits-dont-matter)** > > He stumbled into a left-wing debate and exposed an unsaid but prevalent conservative hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > As Cheney’s quote about Reagan shows, Republicans habitually ignore deficits when they obtain power. It’s a matter of convenience, a tempting way out of the fiscal responsibility trap that makes it difficult for politicians to keep their campaign promises. But every time a Bill Clinton or a Barack Obama gets the keys to the Oval Office, Republicans flip the script, generating a sudden fear of mountains of debt. Congressman Paul Ryan has been claiming the U.S. is about to turn into Greece for eight years. A deficit hawk industry in Washington comes alive to tell the nation that we’re broke. This creates practical constraints on liberal spending programs to help the poor and the elderly. > > Trump’s comment that America can’t default on its debt, and can money-print its way out of trouble, shreds that Republican playbook. Deficit fear-mongering loses its punch if the GOP’s new leader dismisses an animating principle of how conservatives defend against social spending. > > There’s a mirror for this on the left, too, where establishment economists criticize MMT for downplaying the deficit. Paul Krugman argued a few years ago that if you printed too much money, interest rates on government debt would spiral higher, leading to hyper-inflation. MMTers counter that Krugman is creating political constraints where none actually exist. The intricacies of this argument can make you woozy, but suffice to say that the divide between Krugman and Bernie Sanders supporters on display in the presidential primary are also evident here, only in far more technical form. > > Wall Street, and Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton, have taken the Krugman side of the argument, but in a peculiar way. Financial executives who went nuts at the Trump comments acknowledged that the U.S. re-negotiates debt and prints money, but that someone running for president should never say this. “For a president to say these kinds of things publicly would have the opposite effect you would want in that they would put the economy into recession,” said Jim Paulsen, chief investment officer at Wells Capital, to Politico. > > It’s true that confidence plays a role in capital markets, and if a national leader is openly devising schemes to lower our obligation to creditors, those creditors can get nervous. And questioning the full faith and credit of the United States isn’t just a bad look; it’s unconstitutional. But what’s really going on is that Trump is threatening an established order. > > **Liberals have used the constraint of deficits while in power even more strongly than Republicans.** The Obama White House has boasted that, since 2009, the deficit has fallen at the fastest rate since the end of World War II. In 2009, under Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, Congress instituted a “paygo” rule that forced all spending to be paid for, made progressive priorities in social programs more difficult to achieve, and allowed Republicans to demonize Democrats as the party of higher taxes. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/29 "2017-01-29T18:14:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > For the same reason conservatives are the boogey-man under conservative’s beds. Non-existent budgetary restraint. > > We as a nation got screwed by things like Obama Care. We were promised lower premiums and a retention of our doctors. I was under-employed at the time and those were real dollars coming out of my pocket. > > The difference here is that Republicans understood who the boogey-man really was and that was mismanagement by BOTH parties. There was a great deal of backlash within the party. > > Even if they fix Obama care we’re still stuck with trillions of dollars of debt that won’t go away. If they don’t fix it then our debt continues to climb until collapse. Here is one of many things I could cite: How does a border wall built to fulfill a campaign promise for conservatives fit into this scheme? Is it okay for conservatives when you’re being screwed by the right people? “Budget” seems to be a really unrealistic reason to be pro conservative. You want to pay for a mirage donnie used to get suckers to vote for him? And call that better than liberalism? At least liberals want to spend the money on someone or something. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/30 "2017-01-29T18:31:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We as a nation got screwed by things like Obama Care. We were promised lower premiums and a retention of our doctors. I was under-employed at the time and those were real dollars coming out of my pocket. So you where insured, but HAD to buy into ACA? Or did you just count on the emergency room? [QUOTE=Magiver] Even if they fix Obama care we’re still stuck with trillions of dollars of debt that won’t go away. If they don’t fix it then our debt continues to climb until collapse. [/QUOTE] And the debt was because of republicans, that Obama was steadily fixing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/31 "2017-01-29T18:47:21Z")
The current atmosphere surrounding liberalism has almost nothing to do with actual, rational disagreements over policy or religion. It has to do with a concerted effort to demonize liberals culturally and socially in order to hold together a loose coalition of groups some of which might otherwise be in favor of many liberal policies. It’s why many of the arguments in this thread—such as complaints about PC, safe spaces, etc., are fundamentally dishonest and objectively moronic. It is fueled by a multi-faceted ongoing program to paint liberals as foolish, strident, hypocritical, traitorous, foreign-influenced, and ungodly. It’s part of a 50-plus-year campaign to override any rational discussion of policy and pit the disparate parts of the conservative coalition against a biblical-level threat to their lives and values. It is a cynical ploy to prevent any rational decision making and to raise political disagreements to the level of a holy war. It’s Big Lie politics built on a foundation of racism, sexism, anti-intellectualism, and pretty every kind of fundamental prejudice you can think of. It’s how millions of people—even on the left—can be convinced that Hillary Clinton is fundamentally dishonest and corrupt when Trump is easily a thousand times as corrupt. It’s a position that has no rational basis in disagreement over policy, but to inflame the emotions on the right to completely bypass any scrutiny of actual policy decisions. It’s based on the ide that liberals and liberalism are taking away something from “real” Americans ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/32 "2017-01-29T23:43:49Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > So you where insured, but HAD to buy into ACA? Or did you just count on the emergency room? That you’re unaware of the financial damage ACA caused millions of Americans is amazing. > [@enipla](#): > > And the debt was because of republicans, that Obama was steadily fixing. WOW. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/33 "2017-01-30T00:29:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s why many of the arguments in this thread—such as complaints about PC, safe spaces, etc., are fundamentally dishonest and objectively moronic. Near as I can tell this is a recreational outrage cottage industry among right-leaning internet media. In real life, I’ve never seen a so called SJW talking about micro-aggressions, checking privileges, or safe spaces. To hear them tell it, trigger warnings are destroying the country. Maybe too many people get their politics from South Park. YOU PC, BRAH? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/34 "2017-01-30T01:30:31Z")
rat avatar: > [@](#): > > But I have a question that is not trolling but an honest question. Often conservatives view themselves as being “more Christian” and while I admittedly don’t consider myself religious I do still try to follow portions like Romans 15:1 Matthew 25:44-45 James 2:14-17 etc… > > How does one not stand up for the underdog and yet avoid a crisis of faith surrounding those teachings? I am not a Christian, so I do not know New Testament verses. But I offer this from the Old Testament: Exodus 23:3 “Do not show favoritism to the poor in judgement”, and Leviticus 19:15 “Do not pervert justice, do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great”. I do not know if Christians consider these Old Testament admonitions to still be valid, so I will assume they are unless I’m told otherwise. Basically, when the underdog is in the right, but unable to triumph purely for lack of power then it’s a righteous thing to support them. But to do so as a matter of instinct upon seeing them in the underdog position is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/35 "2017-01-30T01:44:11Z")
It actually isn’t but has been portrayed as such for years to the point where all you have to do is label someone a “liberal” and you know that half the audience will tune out what he or she _actually_ says. When your target audience demonstrably hates to think, this is actually regarded as a service. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/36 "2017-01-30T02:29:10Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > rat avatar: > > I am not a Christian, so I do not know New Testament verses. But I offer this from the Old Testament: Exodus 23:3 “Do not show favoritism to the poor in judgement”, and Leviticus 19:15 “Do not pervert justice, do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great”. I do not know if Christians consider these Old Testament admonitions to still be valid, so I will assume they are unless I’m told otherwise. Basically, when the underdog is in the right, but unable to triumph purely for lack of power then it’s a righteous thing to support them. But to do so as a matter of instinct upon seeing them in the underdog position is not correct. :dubious: The context though refers to what amounts to what a judgment (mostly an advice of how to dispense justice to a tribal judge) should be, in that the poor and the rich should be treated the same when a crime has taken place. This is not much about charity. > **[Exodus 23:3 - Justice and Mercy](https://biblehub.com/exodus/23-3.htm)** > > And do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit. > [@](#): > > You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice; 3 nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his dispute. 4"If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey wandering away, you shall surely return it to him.… ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/37 "2017-01-30T02:29:59Z")
My biggest problem with it is that liberalism tends towards authoritarian practices. So does conservatism in different ways, but the thread is not about that. Almost inevitably liberalism will result in higher taxes for me and my family. The idea that government can better allocate my resources is abhorrent to me. Don’t get me wrong, there are many things that are worthwhile to spend on consistent with the proper role of government. Unfortunately the growth of government is a difficult tide to hold back. Many of the issues that unite liberals agree with. I’ll support those causes (I campaigned against Prop 8 in CA), but when it comes to taxes I’m opposed. When it comes to increased authoritarian practices I’m opposed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/38 "2017-01-30T02:36:36Z")
Changing this quote from _Life of Brian_ a bit: Rebel: “All right… all right… but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order… what have _taxes_ done for us?” 2nd rebel: “Brought peace!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/39 "2017-01-30T02:51:26Z")
I don’t know if the answer has been explained in this thread, but it’s been well demonstrated. In short, people make crazy shit up about liberals. If you hang out with liberals a while then come back to this thread you’ll be wondering wtf half the people here are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481/40 "2017-01-30T02:54:33Z")
GIGOBuster: > [@](#): > > The context though refers to what amounts to what a judgment (mostly an advice of how to dispense justice to a tribal judge) should be, in that the poor and the rich should be treated the same when a crime has taken place. This is not much about charity. Of course, but it still indicates that despite charitable instincts, the powerful have a right to proper judgement if their case is just. There’s nothing wrong with being charitable toward the poor, however “wrong” they may be, but the righteousness of their cause shouldn’t be an automatic assumption. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-liberalism-such-a-bad-thing/778481.md?page=3)