# Why is Mars undergoing global warming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778 "2006-03-31T23:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/1 "2006-03-31T23:35:43Z")
SUV’s, pollution, etc. … ? > [@](#): > > **Global Warming on Mars?** > > A study of the ice caps on Mars may show that the red planet is experiencing a warming trend. > > After decades of thinking that the ice caps on Mars were mostly carbon dioxide (dry ice), planetary geologists are starting to think that those caps may be mostly fresh water ice instead. > > Caltech planetary scientists have been keeping a close eye on the dozens of deep, wide pits in the southern martian ice caps. These pits have been growing larger every year, but they never get any deeper. > > The scientists believe this means that there is a layer of dry ice that is evaporating off of a thicker layer of water ice. The yearly increases in evaporation may be caused by a global warming trend happening on Mars. > > If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/2 "2006-03-31T23:57:41Z")
What’s the source of this information? Maybe the sun’s running a fever. Somebody should take its temperature. ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/3 "2006-04-01T00:01:32Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What’s the source of this information? > > Maybe the sun’s running a fever. Somebody should take its temperature. Numerous sources on this, [space.com](http://space.com) also … [http://www.mos.org/cst/article/80/9.html](http://www.mos.org/cst/article/80/9.html) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/4 "2006-04-01T00:08:24Z")
The folks at [realclimate.org](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192) seem to think that the Martian ice cap shrinking is more of a regional climate change than a global one: > [@](#): > > The mean temperature on Mars, averaged over the Martian year can change by many degrees from year to year, depending on how active large scale dust storms are. > > In 2001, Malin et al published a short article in Science (subscription required) discussing MGS data showing a rapid shrinkage of the South Polar Cap. Recently, the MGS team had a press release discussing more recent data showing the trend had continued. MGS 2001 press release MGS 2005 press release. The shrinkage of the Martian South Polar Cap is almost certainly a regional climate change, and is not any indication of global warming trends in the Martian atmosphere. Colaprete et al in Nature 2005 (subscription required) showed, using the Mars GCM, that the south polar climate is unstable due to the peculiar topography near the pole, and the current configuration is on the instability border; we therefore expect to see rapid changes in ice cover as the regional climate transits between the unstable states. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/5 "2006-04-01T03:25:30Z")
Note that Mars doesn’t have any nifty heat stabilizing oceans nor much ground cover to keep the dust down. So slight changes can have large, durable temperature effects. What wouldn’t cause even a blip on Earth can cause years-long dust storms on Mars. (OTOH, maybe some microbes from one of our probes may have started to “terra-form” the place.) ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/6 "2006-04-01T03:26:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The folks at [realclimate.org](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192) seem to think that the Martian ice cap shrinking is more of a regional climate change than a global one: ok, we can play that game also, cite that the Earth’s global warming isn’t “regional” … ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/7 "2006-04-01T03:30:56Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Note that Mars doesn’t have any nifty heat stabilizing oceans nor much ground cover to keep the dust down. > > So slight changes can have large, durable temperature effects. What wouldn’t cause even a blip on Earth can cause years-long dust storms on Mars. > > (OTOH, maybe some microbes from one of our probes may have started to “terra-form” the place.) Really, but we are suppose to have a “CO2” / “greenhouse gas” problem here … does Mars? If not, what is causing the warming again? ---
**Author:** ![YPOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e99b99/32.png) [@YPOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YPOD)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/8 "2006-04-01T03:39:02Z")
All those Mars Rovers are polluting the atmosphere. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/9 "2006-04-01T03:45:44Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > ok, we can play that game also, cite that the Earth’s global warming isn’t “regional” … Try almost any reference on the subject. It’s called “global warming” because the overall result has been an increase of the average temperature of the Earth when measured over the past century. However, the local climatic effects this overall warming produce vary, and may include warming in some areas and cooling in others (as well as changes in rainfall, etc.). It is better to refer to these regional effects as “global climate change,” rather than simplely “global warming” since the latter tends to confuse some people into thinking that the climate is warming on a local level everywhere. Climatic data on Mars go back at most a few decades, compared to over a century on Earth (and many thousands of years based on ice cores and other evidence). There simply isn’t enough long-term data yet to establish that long term warming on a global Martian scale is occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/10 "2006-04-01T03:51:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Try almost any reference on the subject. It’s called “global warming” because the overall result has been an increase of the average temperature of the Earth when measured over the past century. However, the local climatic effects this overall warming produce vary, and may include warming in some areas and cooling in others (as well as changes in rainfall, etc.). It is better to refer to these regional effects as “global climate change,” rather than simplely “global warming” since the latter tends to confuse some people into thinking that the climate is warming on a local level everywhere. > > Climatic data on Mars go back at most a few decades, compared to over a century on Earth (and many thousands of years based on ice cores and other evidence). There simply isn’t enough long-term data yet to establish that long term warming on a global Martian scale is occurring. Ummm … what? In 1975 they were talking about global cooling? Do you remember? You would just be making crap up here would you? [quote] 1975 Newsweek article on global cooling. Newsweek ^ | April 28, 1975 There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.[/image] ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/11 "2006-04-01T03:53:16Z")
screwed that quote up eh? … 🙂 > [@](#): > > 1975 Newsweek article on global cooling. > Newsweek ^ | April 28, 1975 > > There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production– with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/12 "2006-04-01T04:25:04Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Ummm … what? In 1975 they were talking about global cooling? Do you remember? You would just be making crap up here would you? Perhaps you should do a little basic reading on the subject, and then come back to us once you have learned something: [U.S. Environmental Protection Agengy’s Global Warming Site](http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html) [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change](http://www.ipcc.ch/) [US Global Change Research Program](http://www.usgcrp.gov/) Lots more out there. If you don’t think Global Climate Change is real, the US government, the UN, the World Bank, and a large majority of climate scientists certainly do. Please excuse me if I don’t wait up. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/13 "2006-04-01T05:01:06Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Really, but we are suppose to have a “CO2” / “greenhouse gas” problem here … does Mars? If not, what is causing the warming again? Mars does have CO2 in its atmosphere—in fact, a very [high proportion](http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/exhibits/mars/voyage/atmos.html) of it, compared to the earth’s—but it doesn’t have anthropogenic emissions of CO2 as the earth does. Its south polar ice cap is currently releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere. As for “what is causing the warming”, did you read the link I provided? It says there that this seems to be an effect of the high instability of Mars’ regional climate at the south pole. You’ve heard talk recently of climate “tipping points”, crucial points at which climate systems can undergo drastic and sudden change? Well, Mars, having a very thin atmosphere and no oceans, has a lot less climate stability than the earth does, so it’s a lot more volnerable to tipping points, particularly in the extra-unstable south polar region. So Mars can go through some very severe changes, especially on the regional level, more or less at the drop of a hat, and it appears to be going through one now. > [@Flash Dancer](#): > > In 1975 they were talking about global cooling? Do you remember? Sure I remember, but as **Colibri** says, you can’t just assume that hypotheses from back in 1975 somehow invalidate different hypotheses now, thirty years later. Climate science is still rapidly developing, and many of the most important climate effects that we appear to be seeing now have become apparent only quite recently. You do kind of have to put some effort into keeping up with current findings if you want to have any meaningful grasp of the issues. > [@Flash Dancer](#): > > ok, we can play that game also Excuse me? “Game”? What “game”? Are you here to ask honest questions about planetary science because you’re looking for factual answers, or are you just playing a “game” to get other posters to give you answers that you can smirkingly refuse to believe? If you’ve already made up your mind that anthropogenic climate forcing isn’t real or isn’t a potential problem, please don’t hang around here pestering us with insincere questions about it. SDMB participants have enough work as it is trying to fight ignorance for people who actually **want** their ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/14 "2006-04-01T05:25:47Z")
Is the Martian global warming responsible for the phenomenom that every year it appears as big as the Full Moon ? 😃 Sorry for the frivolity but since a few folks have already thrown in some humor I couldn’t resist doing likewise. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/15 "2006-04-01T11:31:11Z")
Both Earth and Mars have gone through cycles of heating and cooling in their history, with solar cycles palying a large part. So, Mars and _Earth before around 1980_ can be explained “naturally”. However, those explanations break down after around 1980 in the case of Earth. Look at [these graphs](http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/large/02.01.jpg). You’ll note that before around 1960, none of these greenhouse gases were _too_ far off the historical equilibrium concentration (eg. 280 parts per million for CO2). However, after that date you’ll note the concentrations begin to rocket, and their increase is still exponential today. This is why attempts to explain current warming trends _naturally_ fail for post-1980 data, while Anthropogenic Climate Change (ACC) models are largely accurate. There are almost no ACC-deniers in professional or academic climatology any more. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/16 "2006-04-01T16:50:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The folks at [realclimate.org](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192) seem to think that the Martian ice cap shrinking is more of a regional climate change than a global one: All of which prooves nothing but that which folks want to think! Proof? Read non-factual postings on the SDMB’s. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/17 "2006-04-01T17:19:08Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > All of which prooves nothing but that which folks want to think! That link was written by Gavin Schmidt, a climate modeller at the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. That article cites specific scientific data and research in coming to its conclusions. Schimdt’s qualifications as an authority on the subject: > [@](#): > > He received a BA (Hons) in Mathematics from Oxford University, a PhD in Applied Mathematics from University College London and was a NOAA Postdoctoral Fellow in Climate and Global Change Research. He serves on the CLIVAR/PAGES Intersection and the Earth System Modeling Framework Advisory Panels and is an Associate Editor for the Journal of Climate. He was recently cited by Scientific American as one of the 50 Research Leaders of 2004, and has worked on Education and Outreach with the American Museum of Natural History, the College de France and the New York Academy of Sciences. He has over 40 peer-reviewed publications. > [@spingears](#): > > Read non-factual postings on the SDMB’s. Such as yours? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/18 "2006-04-01T18:06:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Lots more out there. If you don’t think Global Climate Change is real, the US government, the UN, the World Bank, and a large majority of climate scientists certainly do. The OP obviously has an agenda … this would be a great GD thread. **Flash** : of course the climate is changing. It always is and has – and would still do so now if there were not a human being upon the earth. The actual debate is exactly how much human activities contribute to the apparent changes. IMHO, this seems to be close to unknowable, as we don’t have a sufficient control planet with which to compare. But extrapolation of information from various disciplines (fluid mechanics, astronomy, etc.) can help form some compelling hypotheses. ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/19 "2006-04-01T19:42:13Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > The OP obviously has an agenda … this would be a great GD thread. > > **Flash** : of course the climate is changing. It always is and has – and would still do so now if there were not a human being upon the earth. > > The actual debate is exactly how much human activities contribute to the apparent changes. IMHO, this seems to be close to unknowable, as we don’t have a sufficient control planet with which to compare. But extrapolation of information from various disciplines (fluid mechanics, astronomy, etc.) can help form some compelling hypotheses. Was thinking GD first, but the are certain facts we know … like 45 million years ago the whole Earth was a “tropical” environment, … even Antartica … there have been periods of global cooling greater than the recent warming, one 100 km^3 volcanic eruption puts more pollution in the atmosphere than man has, cumulatively, since his existence on Earth … thus it seems to really come down to facts and proof I think … GQ? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/20 "2006-04-01T19:49:17Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Was thinking GD first, but the are certain facts we know … like 45 million years ago the whole Earth was a “tropical” environment, … even Antartica … there have been periods of global cooling greater than the recent warming, one 100 km^3 volcanic eruption puts more pollution in the atmosphere than man has, cumulatively, since his existence on Earth … thus it seems to really come down to facts and proof I think … GQ? Read the information on the sites I linked to. There are plenty of facts on global climate change there. Before you even think about doing a GD thread on this subject (of which there have been many) you need to educate yourself a little more. Do some homework. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778.md?page=2)