# Why is Mars undergoing global warming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778 "2006-03-31T23:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/21 "2006-04-01T19:59:15Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Read the information on the sites I linked to. There are plenty of facts on global climate change there. > > Before you even think about doing a GD thread on this subject (of which there have been many) you need to educate yourself a little more. Do some homework. Already read those and plenty more … the fact is, the temperature change since the mid 70’s is no more, in fact less, than the cooling changes in recent history … now take your own advice and do some objective research instead of pushing a political agenda … ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/22 "2006-04-01T20:07:54Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Already read those and plenty more … the fact is, the temperature change since the mid 70’s is no more, in fact less, than the cooling changes in recent history … now take your own advice and do some objective research instead of pushing a political agenda … Bullshit. You haven’t read them very carefully, then. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/23 "2006-04-01T20:10:56Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > now take your own advice and do some objective research instead of pushing a political agenda … What political agenda does the US Environmental Protection Agency have? How about George W. Bush? He has admitted the reality of Global Climate Change. ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/24 "2006-04-01T20:20:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Bullshit. You haven’t read them very carefully, then. Ahaha! Explain all of this away genius … > [@](#): > > Newsweek was not alone in spreading this eco-babble. Time magazine for June 24, 1974 declared: “However widely the weather varies from place to place and time to time, when meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades.” Not only did that supposedly alarming trend show “no indication of reversing,” but “Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age.” The Time article even included a map depicting the “expanding Arctic” and referenced one scientific finding that “the area of the ice and snow cover” in the Northern Hemisphere “had suddenly increased by 12% in 1971” and that this increase “has persisted ever since.” “Areas of Baffin Island in the Canadian Arctic … were once totally free of any snow in the summer,” Time observed. “[N]ow they are covered year round.” How different that is from today’s alarmist headlines about disappearing glaciers! > > Echoing the “cooling” rhetoric, the February 1974 issue of Fortune magazine warned that the temperature had already dropped about 2.7? F since the 1940s. That “hardly seems dramatic,” Fortune admitted, “but the effects have been substantial. Icelandic fishing fleets that learned to range northward during the warm period have now had to return to traditional waters to the south. For the first time in this century, ships making for Iceland’s ports have found navigation impeded by drifting ice.” So serious was the cooling trend that “it could bring massive tragedies for mankind.” Plus a whole bunch more … [http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no25/vo13no25\_alarmism.htm](http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no25/vo13no25_alarmism.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/25 "2006-04-01T20:37:20Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Ahaha! Explain all of this away genius … You did notice on reading that virtually the only sources cited in that article were Newsweek, Time, and Fortune? There were only two scientists mentioned. It is to be sure a very good example of alarmism _in the popular press_. It does not reflect anything like the scientific consensus of the time. There was some speculation about the possibility of a long-term cooling trend in the 1970s, but it was not endorsed by a large number of climate scientists. This is different from the situation today when a large body of diverse evidence has documented the reality of Global Climate Change. If you are really going to get your information from the popular press, you need to hone your critical reading skills. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/26 "2006-04-01T20:40:50Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Ahaha! Explain all of this away genius … Oh, and perhaps you could explain all this away: [U.S. Environmental Protection Agengy’s Global Warming Site](http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html) [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change](http://www.ipcc.ch/) [US Global Change Research Program](http://www.usgcrp.gov/) ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/27 "2006-04-01T22:46:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Oh, and perhaps you could explain all this away: > [U.S. Environmental Protection Agengy’s Global Warming Site](http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html) > > [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change](http://www.ipcc.ch/) > > [US Global Change Research Program](http://www.usgcrp.gov/) No, you said you read and know all of that right? Please explain the 2.7F temperature drop from the 40s to the 70s? What has the rise been since then? Could you put it in bold so I can read it here? _popcorn_ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/28 "2006-04-01T22:57:29Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > No, you said you read and know all of that right? Please explain the 2.7F temperature drop from the 40s to the 70s? What has the rise been since then? Could you put it in bold so I can read it here? _popcorn_ You claim that it occurred. It’s up to you to provide a cite of serious scientific evidence that it did. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/29 "2006-04-01T23:13:45Z")
Never mind, I’ll do your work for you: [Global cooling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling) > [@](#): > > Introduction: general awareness and concern > > In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling since 1945. The general public had little awareness about carbon dioxide’s effects: at the time garbage, chemical disposal, smog, particulate pollution, and acid rain were the focus of the public concern, although Paul Ehrlich mentions the climate change from the greenhouse gases in 1968 [1]. However, not long after the awareness reached the public press in the mid-1970s the temperature trend stopped going down. . . . > [@](#): > > Physical mechanisms > > The cooling period is well reproduced by current (2002 on) GCMs [Global Climate Models] that include the effect of sulphate aerosol cooling, so it (now) seems likely that this was the dominant cause. However, at the time there were two physical mechanisms that were most frequently advanced to cause cooling: aerosols and orbital forcing. > > . . . > [@](#): > > Aerosols > > Human activity - mostly as a by-product of fossil fuel combustion; partly by land-use changes - increases the number of tiny particles (aerosols) in the atmosphere. These have a direct effect: they effectively increase the planetary albedo, thus cooling the planet by reducing the sunshine reaching the surface; and an indirect effect: they can affect the properties of clouds by acting as cloud condensation nuclei. In the early 1970s some speculated that this cooling effect might dominate over the warming effect of the CO2 release: see discussion of Rasool and Schneider (1971), below. As a result of observations (aerosol concentrations may have increased, but not enormously) and a switch to cleaner fuel burning, this no longer seems likely; the overwhelming bulk of current scientific work concentrates on the forcing, prediction and understanding of possible global warming. . . . > [@](#): > > The present level of knowledge > > Thirty years later, the concern that the cooler temperatures would continue, and perhaps at a faster rate, can now be observed to have been wrong. More has to be learned about climate, but the growing records have shown the cooling concerns of 1975 to have been simplistic and not borne out. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/30 "2006-04-01T23:19:32Z")
[Here’s a graph](http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/17.htm) of temperature trends over the last 140 years. The minor cooling episode from the 1940s-1970s was a rather minor and temporary blip in the overall warming trend over this period. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/31 "2006-04-01T23:21:21Z")
Nicely done, **Colibri**! ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/32 "2006-04-01T23:39:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Here’s a graph](http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/17.htm) of temperature trends over the last 140 years. The minor cooling episode from the 1940s-1970s was a rather minor and temporary blip in the overall warming trend over this period. Ummm … first that doesn’t show a 2.7F drop from the 40s to 70s which has been reported on extensively by a lot better sources than the UN? Calling bullshit! … ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/33 "2006-04-01T23:48:33Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Ummm … first that doesn’t show a 2.7F drop from the 40s to 70s which has been reported on extensively by a lot better sources than the UN? Calling bullshit! … [This one](http://www.aip.org/history/climate/20ctrend.htm) shows a similar graph. The global average temperature drop was NOT 2.7 F, and I don’t believe any credible source says it was. In global terms, that’s HUGE change. Link to a reputable source claiming the _global average_ temperature dropped 2.7 degrees F in that time period? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/34 "2006-04-02T00:50:13Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Ummm … first that doesn’t show a 2.7F drop from the 40s to 70s which has been reported on extensively by a lot better sources than the UN? Calling bullshit! … I’m calling “Inability to Read a Simple Graph.” A drop relative to what? The baseline (center line) for that graph is the average temperature between 1961 and 1990. The _maximum_ downward deviation from that average during the time period you mention is less than 0.3 C, or 0.6 F. Of course, since the baseline period and the cooling trend partially overlap, one would not explect there to be much deviation anyway. What is apparent is a temporary _leveling off_ (not drop) from the strong warming trend of 1910-1945, before the upward trend resumed in the late 1970s. Please provide a cite from a “much better source than the UN” :rolleyes: for a statitically significant drop in global average temperature of 2.7 F during the period you mention. [Thanks, **Qadgop** , and thanks for backup, **Q.E.D.**] ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/35 "2006-04-02T04:14:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’m calling “Inability to Read a Simple Graph.” > > A drop relative to what? The baseline (center line) for that graph is the average temperature between 1961 and 1990. The _maximum_ downward deviation from that average during the time period you mention is less than 0.3 C, or 0.6 F. Of course, since the baseline period and the cooling trend partially overlap, one would not explect there to be much deviation anyway. What is apparent is a temporary _leveling off_ (not drop) from the strong warming trend of 1910-1945, before the upward trend resumed in the late 1970s. > > Please provide a cite from a “much better source than the UN” :rolleyes: for a statitically significant drop in global average temperature of 2.7 F during the period you mention. > > [Thanks, **Qadgop** , and thanks for backup, **Q.E.D.**] Well, I can’t argue with someone who thinks an UN report, based on scientists from Africa, Korea, etc. are better than our own scientists … they commit fraud on SCR and can’t even feed their own people … believe what you want, but it is very apparent you are hardly learned on this subject … let me start you on a scientific path … NOAA … [http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html](http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html) ---
**Author:** ![Flash\_Dancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Flash\_Dancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash_Dancer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/36 "2006-04-02T04:27:55Z")
Let’s see, for the genius here … \*\*“Greenhouse gases … water vapor is present in the atmosphere in concentrations of 3-4% whereas carbon dioxide is at 387 ppm or 0.0386%.” \*\* Hmmm … so water vapor is a 100 times more prevalent than CO2 as a greenhouse gas in the atmosphere … oh my! We better do something about water evaporating into the atmosphere fast eh? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/37 "2006-04-02T05:08:57Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > We better do something about water evaporating into the atmosphere fast eh? :smack: There is an upper limit for how much water vapor can exist in the atmosphere, and it tends to be largely self-regulating. Additionally, although water accounts for the largest portion of the greenhouse effect, it also comprises a significantly larger portion of the atmosphere than CO[sub]2[/sub] does. Water vapor is present at 1000 times the concentration of CO[sub]2[/sub], yet water vapor alone accounts for roughly 60-70% of the greenhouse effect, compared to about 25% for CO[sub]2[/sub]. Clearly, CO[sub]2[/sub] has a FAR greater effect, and it is more or less directly under our control. There is also no upper limit to CO[sub]2[/sub] concentration, nor is there a strong self-regulating mechanism in place, which means that CO[sub]2[/sub]-caused greenhouse effects can run away, as is theorized happened on Venus, our sister world. BTW, you missed a decimal place: 387 ppm is .00387%. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/38 "2006-04-02T05:18:50Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Well, I can’t argue with someone who thinks an UN report, based on scientists from Africa, Korea, etc. are better than our own scientists … they commit fraud on SCR and can’t even feed their own people … You really are one of the Fighting Ignorant, aren’t you? Although that graph is posted on a UNEP site, the basic data is the same as that on the graph that **Q.E.D.** linked to. And **Q.E.D.s** graph is based on these references: Jones, P.D., M. New, D.E. Parker, S. Martin, and I.G. Rigor. 1999. Surface air temperature and its changes over the past 150 years. Reviews of Geophysics 37:173-199. Parker, D. E., C. K. Folland, and M. Jackson. 1995. Marine surface temperature: observed variations and data requirements. Climatic Change 31:559-600. Jones is a scientist at the University of East Anglia, UK, and Parker is at the UK Meteorological Office. I wasn’t aware that Jones and Parker were Korean or African names . . . > [@](#): > > are better than our own scientists … US scientists are of course in the forefront of Global Climate Change research, and their overwhelming consensus is that global warming is occurring. One of the key recent reports on Global Climate Change is that by the United States National Research Council, [t Climate Change Science: An Analysis of Some Key Questions](http://newton.nap.edu/html/climatechange/) (warning: pdf), the [authors](http://newton.nap.edu/html/climatechange/committee.html) of which were all from the US. The opening of this report says flatly: > [@](#): > > Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth’s atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise. Temperatures are, in fact, rising. > [@Flash Dancer](#): > > but it is very apparent you are hardly learned on this subject … Actually, I served on the US National Committee on Global Change Research in 1991-1992. > [@Flash Dancer](#): > > let me start you on a scientific path … NOAA …[http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html](http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html) Thank you for helping to support my position. You did notice that (1) that graph covers only the period _before_ the Industrial Revolution, and (2) the caption says: > [@](#): > > The grey color represents CO2 concentrations, and the scale on the far left refers to the CO2 values. As can be seen in the graph to the left, pre-industrial levels (~280 ppmv) were similar to previous interglacials (times which were not considered an ‘ice-age’ - as now). **The present, post-industrial atmospheric level of CO2 concentration is around 370ppmv, which on this graph would be off the scale.** Bolding mine. The NOAA site also [has this to say](http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/paleolast.html) > [@](#): > > The similar characteristics among the different paleoclimatic reconstructions provides greater confidence in the following important conclusions: > > ``` > * Dramatic global warming has occurred since the 19th century. > > * The recent record warm temperatures in the 1990's are indeed the warmest temperatures the Earth has seen in at least the last 1000 years. > > ``` I suppose it’s all those Koreans and Africans on the NOAA staff that came up with that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/39 "2006-04-02T05:22:43Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > Let’s see, for the genius here … It’s not too surprising that you seem to regard the word “genius” as some kind of insult. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778/40 "2006-04-02T05:25:16Z")
> [@Flash Dancer](#): > > [http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html](http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/carbdiox.html) I find it difficult to believe that anyone has eyes sharp enough to spot “a 2.7F drop from the 40s to 70s” on a small graph which is calibrated in “Thousands of years before present.” Could you provide some actual _visible_ evidence for your claim? BTW, you should be aware that NOAA is currently laboring under the same cloud of politically spawned censorship that NASA has been dealing with: [Censorship Is Alleged at NOAA](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/10/AR2006021001766.html) > [@](#): > > NOAA insists on having “a minder” monitor its scientists when they discuss their findings with journalists. > “It seems more like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union than the United States,” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mars-undergoing-global-warming/350778.md?page=3)