# Why is Matthew 6:5-7 ignored by public prayer advocates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935 "2001-01-08T02:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/21 "2001-01-08T21:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > Ostentatious piety is the issue, not merely praying aloud. No, wrong, wrong, wrong. By praying in public the non-hypocrites are providing cover for the hypocrites. Jesus says “don’t do it” – how much clearer does it need to be? > [@](#): > > Rhetorical hyperbole. Extremely common in the New Testament. No, it isn’t and, no, it isn’t. You are leaning on your own understanding. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/22 "2001-01-08T21:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phil\_15 \* > Nice try, but the passage is being taken out of context. **What part of “do not pray in public places” don’t you understand?** How can that be out of context? > [@](#): > > Keep in mind that Jesus’ disciples were asking Him to teach them how to pray and the admonition was only one example of how NOT to pray This is from the Sermon on the Mount. You are thinking of some other scripture. > [@](#): > > Jesus prayed in public when He gave thanks before His miracles feeding multitudes which is recorded in most of the Gospels. All he did was look up and say thanks. I don’t know if that qualifies as public prayer. I suppose when you are given food looking up and saying thanks is OK. > [@](#): > > Paul did the same aboard ship in Acts. Where is this verse? > [@](#): > > Paul also told Timothy to come before the throne of God boldly in asking those things he had need of. Where in public or in churches is this throne? I would very much like to go see the people praying there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/23 "2001-01-08T21:35:16Z")
I think **Danimal** is right: we should not be focusing on whether or not it’s appropriate for Christians to pray in public, even though there may be some Christians that we’d all dearly love to shut up. The reason for not having **state-sponsored Christian prayer** at football games or anywhere else is not because it’s un-Christian, but because it’s unconstitutional. Christians have just as much right as anybody else to pray in public **without government sponsorship** , and we should let them decide among themselves whether or not that’s appropriate Christian behavior. But their decision doesn’t have and shouldn’t have any effect on the constitutionality of state-sponsored prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/24 "2001-01-08T22:28:41Z")
**jmullaney** , I will not descent to debate scripture with you this time. Your ultraliteralist interpretation leans on your _own_ understanding; it is borne out by neither tradition nor theology nor scholarship. I am not going down this road again. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/25 "2001-01-08T22:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > it is borne out by neither tradition nor theology nor scholarship. I’m sure it must take some people years of study to learn what this means. :rolleyes: “And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow we shall follow the ways of our fathers. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.” – Koran 2:170 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/26 "2001-01-09T03:48:07Z")
jmullaney, hope you don’t mind me posting what my copy of the Koran (well, interpretation of the Koran) has as that verse: > [@](#): > > 2:171. And when it is said to them, `Follow that which ALLAH has sent down, they say, `Nay, we will follow that wherein we found our fathers.’ What! Even if their fathers had no sense at all and followed not the right path. {For some odd reason, this edition includes the “mystical letters” at the beginning of some Suras in the numbering, thus the 171 here.} My personal favourite verse to quote though, is this one: > [@](#): > > 2: 81. Or, do you say of ALLAH what you know not. {end of the verse only} I’m betting you missed the “entertainment” of ARG and a couple of others who tried to teach the rest of us the error of our ways. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/27 "2001-01-09T13:55:01Z")
Ah yes. The full verse (“And they say: Fire shall not touch us but for a few days. Say: Have you received a promise from Allah, then Allah will not fail to perform His promise, or do you speak against Allah what you do not know?”) does kind of settle the question of purgatory. Someone posted a link to what appears to be an OK [Qu’ran](http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/). I’ve only seen bit and pieces (usually quoted by Malcolm X, to be honest) before. I like it so far except the parts that seem to encourage the killing of infidels, although I defer to anyone’s wisdom on what else those verses may mean. But I guess I missed ARG, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Phil\_15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phil_15)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/28 "2001-01-09T14:36:17Z")
I am rather disappointed that no one bothered to help on the issue of the “Congressional Public Prayer” and the status of the denomination/faith of the Chaplain service ☹ However, there is still some confusion regarding the “out of context” verse. Please note the following: > [@](#): > > Psalm 35:18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. There are many instances in the OT of public prayer…this is but one. > [@](#): > > Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. > Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Does three denote public? It certainly isn’t private by any means. > [@](#): > > Luke 1:10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. Public prayer of the Jewish congregation. > [@](#): > > John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. > Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. > Acts 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat. (This is the ref. that jmulaney asked for) The above are listed to show there is credence in the Bible for group prayer and prayer lead by one in behalf of the group and according to the words of Jesus in Matt 18:19-20 perfectly acceptable to Him. I submit that the OP refers strictly to individual/personal prayer for oneself. To not make a shameful show of one’s piety for **political** gain. keep in mind that the Pharisees were the ruling class of that day. LOL, perhaps Jesus gave the first example of true SOCS 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/29 "2001-01-09T15:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phil\_15 \* > I am rather disappointed that no one bothered to help on the issue of the “Congressional Public Prayer” and the status of the denomination/faith of the Chaplain service Cheer up – you can start a new thread. The Opening Post is rather confining. > [@](#): > > There are many instances in the OT of public prayer…this is but one. But, of course, these people did not have the full law which came from Jesus did they? > [@](#): > > if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you Are you saying God won’t know what these two or three ask for unless they do so outloud? > [@](#): > > For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Are you saying somehow the commanment enjoining secret prayer somehow mandates Christians never gather into groups? Surely small bands of Christians may share the same desires and have their secret prayers answered by God. > [@](#): > > Does three denote public? But there is nothing connotating such prayers are outloud. > [@](#): > > John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks Nor here. Surely if Jesus had said something, it would have been recorded. > [@](#): > > Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. Nor here. > [@](#): > > Acts 27:35 And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat. _Maybe here._ On a **lifeboat** , in the middle of the sea Paul thanked God they had some food supplies. If that is your justification for breaking one of Jesus’s commandment, it is a rather poor exception to disprove the rule. > [@](#): > > according to the words of Jesus in Matt 18:19-20 perfectly acceptable to Him. There is nothing in those verses regarding un-secret prayer. In fact it implies all the more that a prayer must be secret otherwise you would need only to ask a few others to pray for what you pray and would hence be all powerful. I can provide ample evidence that is not how God works. A prayer seen by men won’t be answered by God. > [@](#): > > To not make a shameful show of one’s piety for **political** gain. Don’t pray as those who are not true to themselves. How is that? On street corners and meeting houses. Why not? God doesn’t answer such prayers. How instead? In secret, because God rewards secret prayers. The commandment is very clear. {fixed coding. --Gaudere} [Edited by Gaudere on 01-09-2001 at 09:11 AM] ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/30 "2001-01-09T16:11:13Z")
No one has yet answered my question: Why do you want to pray publicly? Why do you want to pray over the loudspeaker at a football game? Isn’t your reason for wanting to do so the very thing that Jesus warned against (to be seen by men)? ---
**Author:** ![jumblemind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@jumblemind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jumblemind)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/31 "2001-01-09T16:16:15Z")
Thumbs up, **jmullaney**. You are echoing my thoughts, and I figured you’d take the other side of this interpretation argument. Let me pose another question for the pro-publicos to possibly flesh out the debate a bit more. Are people praying at football games to be seen by God or other people? I suspect “both” is the answer, but I don’t see how you can pray to be seen by other people without the spectre of “political gain” looming overhead. Upon review, this is basically a different wording of **spoke** ’s question. So…Why, which is it, and why again? ---
**Author:** ![Phil\_15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Phil\_15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phil_15)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/32 "2001-01-09T16:42:07Z")
jmullaney, I agree that the OT represents the old covenent. My cite was listed as a continuing example. > [@](#): > > Are you saying God won’t know what these two or three ask for unless they do so outloud? > Are you saying somehow the commanment enjoining secret prayer somehow mandates Christians never gather into groups? > Surely small bands of Christians may share the same desires and have their secret prayers answered by God. No, no, and conditionally yes. There are dozens of instances where Jesus, Peter, and Paul are noted to have prayed in secret or separated from others. I agree wholeheartedly with you on this from the standpoint of **personnal** prayer. But I think you are missing the boat entirely when applied to giving thanks or asking blessing on or for a group. Also, it is written many times in Acts that members met together and were of one mind. How can that be said unless their thoughts were vocalized? > [@](#): > > But there is nothing connotating such prayer was aloud. > quote: > John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks… > Nor here. Surely if Jesus had said something, it would have been recorded. I submit: > [@](#): > > John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen C’mon jmullaney 🙂 That arguement just won’t fly. I firmly believe that Jesus’ commandment was against prayer in public used as self exhaltation only for the most part, and note as well the prayer of Jesus in the garden was heard and observed by certain disciples otherwise how could it have been recorded. Would Jesus have countermanded His own commandment if it were to be taken in the context you are trying prove? To add what **YOU are saying is explict** in Jesus’ teaching would be to make other **recorded** actions by Jesus and the Apostles meaningless and possibly diabolical in that future followers would be led astray by emulation. IMHO, you are adding to the book! Back to the football game: The prayers offered at football games are a Southern (read Bible Belt) tradition in some areas that when done properly ask God’s blessings that everyone play to the best of their abilities and for the safety of the players. I submit that there are probably many examples where this was done strictly for the glory of the speaker and I would agree that there would certainly be room for condemnation as well. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/33 "2001-01-09T18:12:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > **Why do you want to pray publicly? Why do you want to pray over the loudspeaker at a football game? Isn’t your reason for wanting to do so the very thing that Jesus warned against (to be seen by men)?** “Wall, y’know it’s to keep them heathen non-Christians in their place an’ remind 'em that this here is a **Christian** nation, with no place for dissenters.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/34 "2001-01-09T18:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phil\_15 \* > Also, it is written many times in Acts that members met together and were of one mind. How can that be said unless their thoughts were vocalized? Weren’t they all of the same Spirit? As far as vocalizing thoughts, commonly refered to as speaking, I don’t think such a thing is unheard of and hardly sinful. > [@](#): > > I submit: > > > [@](#): > > > > John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen > > … > IMHO, you are adding to the book! Er, who is doing what now? > [@](#): > > note as well the prayer of Jesus in the garden was heard and observed by certain disciples otherwise how could it have been recorded. Good point. Mind you, Jesus says just before this that his “soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” Again, like Paul cast adrift on the open sea in a lifeboat, sort of an extraordinary circumstance. > [@](#): > > Would Jesus have [violated] His own commandment if it were to be taken in the context you are trying prove? Under such conditions? I wouldn’t blame him. > [@](#): > > To add what **YOU are saying is explict** in Jesus’ teaching would be to make other **recorded** actions by Jesus and the Apostles meaningless and possibly diabolical in that future followers would be led astray by emulation. There is a time and a place. Were I a Christian, I would very very carefully guard myself against such matters lest I would fall into hypocrisy or set a bad example for others. I might add that refusing to participate in public prayers, as a matter of conscience, is perfectly acceptable according to the Sermon on the Mount. (BTW, **Gaudere** – thanks for the code fix) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935/35 "2001-01-09T19:27:38Z")
What seems to have been missed by both sides in this argument (I haven’t read the ENTIRE thread yet) is that praying in front of a sporting event is ENTIRELY praying to be seen as whether or not your team wins their High School football game will have little to no bearing upon the rest of your life and you will not end up in abject squalor for your impiety as to whether or not they lose. Praying before a sporting event is doing it for recognition pure and simple. There is absolutely no reason for you not to pray. No one will stop you and no one will think there is anything wrong with you praying. If you are praying to be pious then you can pray regardless of what’s going on. If you want to make a spectacle of it then you are violating Matthew 6:5-7 Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-matthew-6-5-7-ignored-by-public-prayer-advocates/48935.md?page=1)